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Author Topic: Rubber pucks?  (Read 12704 times)

Fig

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Rubber pucks?
« on: October 26, 2007, 06:07:32 pm »

Hi all,

I remember reading about some rubber "pucks" used to isolate studio floors from a concrete slab in the hopes of alleviating mechanical vibrations from passing traffic and other seismic events.

Does any one know the supplier of such things?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Thanks and regards,

Thom Fiegle
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gullfo

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 09:53:53 pm »

Mason Industries - heavy duty floor isolation and wall mounts
http://www.mason-industries.com/masonind/private/overview/pr oduct_overview.cfm

PAC International - RSIC supplies for framing and drywall.
http://www.pac-intl.com/products.html

consider that the floor mass should to be designed to have a resonant frequency about 1/3 of the expected lowest frequency you are encountering (or generate if outbound isolation is important). this is to ensure the level of the lowest frequency will be reduced enough to meet your noise criteria.

often this means floating concrete, or second best, using framed floors with the addition of mass building materials (sand, cement board, steel plates, lead, etc).

Hopefully someone can jump in to add more/better ideas.
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jfrigo

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2007, 02:39:13 am »

Some other places to look for floor solutions:

http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/floors.aspx

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_uboat/sound_isolation _uboat.asp

Re: vibration isolation, it can get pretty complex. You can do some simple floor isolation and get a bit of help, but to get it done right, it takes more than putting something soft under your floor.

You need to take into account the forcing frequency (the lowest frequency you're trying to isolate against) and the natural frequency of the isolator (periodic sinusoidal oscillations, i.e you remove a load from a spring and it bounces up and down). You need to calculate the required static deflection, and have a proper isolator for your load and the required deflection (typically spring or neoprene, but there's quite a range of possibilities within the two types).

Load dispersion and center of gravity (where you get displacement without rotation) are also to be considered. There is, of course, plenty of math available to help you figure these things out, but you need accurate information about your conditions to be able to plug useful figures in. The wrong isolator can actually amplify certain vibrations and increase transmissibility rather than diminish it.
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crna59

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2007, 01:21:16 am »

These are Auralex U-boats.

Regards,
Bruceindex.php/fa/6559/0/
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crna59

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2007, 01:22:40 am »

Close up view.

Regards,
Bruceindex.php/fa/6560/0/
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Fig

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2007, 01:07:42 pm »

Thanks all,

I'm repurposing the products - so all the technical tips, while appreciated, are not necessary.

I think the Auralex U-boats are gonna work best.

Thanks again.

Fig
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franman

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2007, 09:54:37 pm »

Fig,

Just curious about what your 're-purpose' will be...

BTW guys, we use Mason EAFM, Super W and FS/FSN for almost all of our projects. Kinetics RIM also on tighter budget slab products and roll-out for some projects. The engineering involved in properly floating a room is extensive. Loads must be accurately calculated (as per Guilfo) or it just doesn't work.... We spend a lot of time on this for every project and then we have the vendor review the designs for a double-check..

Anyway, the U-Boats are not my favorite. I just feel the rubber is way too stiff and there isn't enuf deflection. Deflection is what it's all about on resilient isolators. The resonant frequency is a directly related to the amount of deflection so if the pads don't 'give' (Compress) at least 1/4-1/2" then you aren't really isolating anything in the lower two octaves, which is what this is all supposed to be about anyway....

So, Fig.... what's your project??
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Fig

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2007, 12:00:52 pm »

franman wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 20:54

Fig,

Just curious about what your 're-purpose' will be...

<snip>

So, Fig.... what's your project??



Hi Fran,

Can you provide a link to the products you suggest?

I have a client that claims to be experiencing (hearing/feeling) seismic vibrations in the infrasonic range.  He is a music student in an apartment building and suspects an HVAC system that is located about a block away.  His neighbors do not experience it, but they may not be as sensitive as he is, or perhaps - due to geometries and whatever, not receiving these "sounds" in their apartments at all.

As an experiment, I've suggested that he isolate his bed or sofa from his floor and then sit on it without being in contact with his floor or walls in any way.  If this mechanical isolation has any effect, we will proceed from there in trying to somehow isolate his furniture, wall hangings, etc. from the structure in which he is living.

Does anyone remember the situation in Kokomo Indiana where people were "hearing" a seismic event from miles away in a quarry?  My brother lives out there and told me about the phenomenon.  I've been unable to find out how it was resolved, but residents took it to court as noise pollution or some such claim.

If anyone has any suggestions beyond my crazy idea above, please forward them to me.

Osci-later,

Fig

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gullfo

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2007, 04:44:31 pm »

maybe its possible to get some actual measurements using sound level meters and something like room eq wizard or ETF to determine what noise/sound/frequency levels are in the space. this way suggestions on treatments will be more likely to be successful... contact mics can be used to try to determine the entry points of any significant noises.
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Glenn Stanton

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avare

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2007, 05:26:56 pm »

Wht a new ballgame!  You don't know the frequencies involved?  Floor isolation is expensive at low frequencies.  The lower the frequency, the greater the expense.  

Get some contact mics and/or accelerometers and determine the frequencies.  After that determine the source.  It may be cheaper to have some work there.  I recall reading about a studio with traffic noise problems.  The final, only effective, and effective solution was a saw cut in the concrete coupling the building to the roadway.

Quietly:
Andre
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gullfo

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2007, 07:53:03 am »

Fig wrote on Fri, 02 November 2007 12:00

Can you provide a link to the products you suggest?


check back a few posts - Mason, PAC, and Kinetics links are there. which ones to use depend on the design criteria which will be based on the desired characteristics of the floor, the environment its going into, and the budget...
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Glenn Stanton

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meverylame

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2007, 09:38:44 am »

Honestly I've seen someone use hockey pucks to a great degree of success.
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franman

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2007, 04:43:36 pm »

Fig,

As mentioned by Glenn, the links are above... With regards to testing, siesmic activity requires an accelerometer and appropriately calibrated vibration test equipment.. We have been wanting to experiment with an accelerometer attached to the TEF (via a pre-amp) but it would be hard to put 'absolute' values to the measurements. The TEF output signal is a reference and therefore, once you calibrate your microphone sensitivity you always have absolute values...

Hockey pucks.. I don't think so... The rubber has almost no elastomeric qualities. (it doesn't compress)...

As I mentioned above, the LF cutoff or resonant frequency in any structural isolation system (except springs) is directly related to the amount of deflection (compression) in the isolation system. The hardness, durometer and compression all factor into determining the resonant frequency and efficiency at the lowest frequencies approaching the resonant frequency. We do not use Sorbothane for room isolation, but they have a cool little calculator for determining the size of a pad under a specified weight... see:

http://www.sorbothane.com/   see the download design guide... You may be able to try the sorbothane for the 'bed isolation' project. We use this product for isolating main in-wall speakers from the wall systems. It's excellent for that!!

This subject of low frequency structural isolation is so often misunderstood in our business. It almost could take an entire forum of it's own.... I was lucky early on in my career to collaborate with some very knowledgable and helpful consultants and they steered me in the right direction as far as structural isolation. I see so many 'wrong' things done in this area, even by some well respected designers... of course, what do I know? I'm just an old pony-tailed studio rat!!
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Fig

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2007, 11:03:08 am »

franman wrote on Sat, 03 November 2007 15:43

... of course, what do I know? I'm just an old pony-tailed studio rat!!


Thanks again, Fran and everyone.

I'll be the first to admit that I am out of my league here - being a fader jockey.  Just trying to get a fellow some sound sleep in the presence of a low hum that permeates his living quarters.  Poor guy.

I'm gonna send him a link to this thread so he can decide for himself if he should persue this or find a new place to rent (possibly easier and probably cheaper).

Osci-later,

Thom "Fig" Fiegle
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Dusk Bennett

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Re: Rubber pucks?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2008, 06:14:38 pm »

franman wrote on Fri, 02 November 2007 01:54

Fig,

Just curious about what your 're-purpose' will be...

BTW guys, we use Mason EAFM, Super W and FS/FSN for almost all of our projects. Kinetics RIM also on tighter budget slab products and roll-out for some projects. The engineering involved in properly floating a room is extensive. Loads must be accurately calculated (as per Guilfo) or it just doesn't work.... We spend a lot of time on this for every project and then we have the vendor review the designs for a double-check..

Anyway, the U-Boats are not my favorite. I just feel the rubber is way too stiff and there isn't enuf deflection. Deflection is what it's all about on resilient isolators. The resonant frequency is a directly related to the amount of deflection so if the pads don't 'give' (Compress) at least 1/4-1/2" then you aren't really isolating anything in the lower two octaves, which is what this is all supposed to be about anyway....

So, Fig.... what's your project??



franman,
I'm interested in your post. It seems you have experience with a variety of these products so you are probably able to voice your opinion.

Let me play devils advocate for a second here. While I have not seen anything from Auralex to substantiate their claims on the U-Boats (that they alleviate 50-90% of LF  vibrations above 40 Hz), they do claim they have proven this via tests at Riverbank Labs. Riverbank is for real. You seem to imply, however, that these pads dont really work that well. Why? Is it because you have found through empirical study that these pads just blow or that there are too many other products that work better for the price? I'm curious.

The U-boats are not cheap so I would expect them to make a noticeable difference.

I'd appreciate your feedback....I may have to float a floor in a studio and I want to be sure the money is well spent.

Thanks in advance!

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