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Author Topic: Mix Plus  (Read 7872 times)

NelsonL

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2007, 12:01:06 pm »

Why would the LE rig sound better?


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j.hall

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2007, 12:23:27 pm »

the only possible reason i can think of that LE would sound better is that you would get the version 7 mixer.

personally, i can't say it's worth the money investment for the computer (which you already own the dual G4)

with the mix+ rig you get TDM support, which is a big deal for your G4.  i honestly think this is a well thought through path liam.  if you see it increasing business, which brings more money in the door, i wouldn't hesitate to do it.

growing a business is always scary, but if you see a need, it's stupid to not fill it (in a well thought out way) and keep all these clients coming back and feeling taken care of.

from everything you've indicated, this is a move you need to make.

make it fit the budget, while maximizing it's usefullness.  seems like you've done that.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2007, 12:55:18 pm »

rattleyour wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 16:01

Why would the LE rig sound better?





Floating point, perhaps?

But also comparing the higher sample-rate + converters compared to the old Mix system, along with the new mixing engine.
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NelsonL

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2007, 01:26:39 pm »

Tomas Danko wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 09:55

rattleyour wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 16:01

Why would the LE rig sound better?





Floating point, perhaps?

But also comparing the higher sample-rate + converters compared to the old Mix system, along with the new mixing engine.


The main point of the Mix+ system for me, would be to fully implement an Aurora 16, so you have to weigh that in the equation.

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j.hall

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2007, 02:00:18 pm »

my aurora sounds great!  you'll love it.
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brett

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2007, 06:40:30 am »

Iain Graham wrote on Thu, 01 November 2007 12:53

ADC is HD only, the mix cards don't have enough power to handle it.




ADC has nothing to do with the TDM cards. It is CPU controlled as it is adjusting the time at which samples are played back from the disk. That is CPU controlled in all DAWs including PT. ADC is availble using PT MIX systems when Digital Performer is the front end. But I never got the system running smooth. So there is no ADC in PT LE or MIX because DigiDesign wants you to have an incentive to buying HD. Built in redundancy. I also do not beleive there is the issue with the PCI bus as stated as the reason to abandon MIX, It is very feasable that a driver could have been written that allowed core audio on G5's to run properluy with the quicktime 7 using an expansion chassis.
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Iain Graham

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2007, 09:34:15 pm »

The conversion and the mix engine would be the reason for me for going LE and not Mix. I had forgotten about the better conversion though, so that would change the equation somewhat.


Quote:

ADC has nothing to do with the TDM cards.


The amount of power used by the mix engine increases when you turn ADC on. And the chips have a name associated with it. Even if the CPU is involved, the delay times will come from the TDM buss as that's where the mix engine and some of the plug-in times are coming from. Even RTAS processed channels will go back into the TDM buss for summing.

You're very right about the redundancy though.
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Iain Graham

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brett

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2007, 12:16:01 am »

Iain Graham wrote on Mon, 05 November 2007 02:34

The conversion and the mix engine would be the reason for me for going LE and not Mix. I had forgotten about the better conversion though, so that would change the equation somewhat.


Quote:

ADC has nothing to do with the TDM cards.


The amount of power used by the mix engine increases when you turn ADC on. And the chips have a name associated with it. Even if the CPU is involved, the delay times will come from the TDM buss as that's where the mix engine and some of the plug-in times are coming from. Even RTAS processed channels will go back into the TDM buss for summing.

You're very right about the redundancy though.


ADC does not occur at the TDM bus level, nor does is add any processing to the tdm engine or cards. ADC occurs at the software level and is processed by the CPU. The host accesses the delay times from each time slot on a channel regardless of whether it is native or TDM and the host inserts the needed time to other tracks with less latency. This occurs before the audio is even accesed from the disk and before it is tranfered to the TDM bus. This is why Digital Performer was able to add ADC when running DP as a front end to the TDM DAE engine on PT mix systems. There is no reason why ADC could not be added to both PT LE and PT Mix systems other than marketing reasons.    
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j.hall

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2007, 12:16:27 pm »

brett wrote on Sun, 04 November 2007 23:16

There is no reason why ADC could not be added to both PT LE and PT Mix systems other than marketing reasons.    


for LE, i can agree.  but mix?  a company that exists in the technology world has to, at some point, srop support of old products to continue to push forward and be competitve in the market place.  we can all be pissed at digi for various things, but allocating capital to support the mix systems is not something i'd like to see them do.  as it raises their overhead, and increases the price of their products to the consumer.  their prices are already high enough.

ADC makes the biggest noticeable difference in your drum tracks.  other then that, i simply take comfort in knowing all the other tracks are still time aligned.

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Iain Graham

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2007, 08:24:58 am »

When you turn ADC on in an HD rig, more chips on the HD cards are assigned to the mix engine, and the process name given to those chips is for ADC "mixer long delays" or something like that for instance.

Whether any of the processing is done there or not is a different issue. DP does ADC with or without PT hardware, doesn't it? Why would they then force it to use the process cards for work in a mix environment.

For digi, mix is a dead system, and was when ADC was introduced. They would never add such a feature to an old product, no one would.

ADC is one of the carrots to get users to buy an HD system. Maybe that's why turning it on uses up chips on the cards?
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Iain Graham

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rankus

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2007, 02:24:49 pm »

Iain Graham wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 05:24


ADC is one of the carrots to get users to buy an HD system. Maybe that's why turning it on uses up chips on the cards?


I run Nuendo which has full ADC and I did not notice much if any increase in CPU usage when it was introduced... In other words it does not take very much horsepower to run ADC ... I agree that Digi is simply trying to up-sell to the HD system... and it's working.  I am considering the move across to PT but the staggering price difference just for ADC upsets my stomach.  


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brett

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2007, 02:53:21 pm »

I get that mix is dead, but the argument that Mix systems don't have the power to run ADC as stated above is just completely wrong. If digital performer can do it when running the DAE why couldn't PT. And the fact that the ADC is using up slots on the card is just their way of keeping it HD only. If they did it nativly they would have no excuse for not implimenting it in LE. ADC does not have to use the cards DSP as it works fine in the TDM environment inside DP. It also would have been apropriate to make the final version of PT for mix run on 7 and osx 10.4 instead of abandoning it at 10.3.4. There are a lot of studios still using mix systems. Especially studios who use consoles and outboard to mix. PT 6.4.1 does actually work well on 10.3.9 as long as you do not install quicktime 7.
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NelsonL

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2007, 05:31:08 pm »

Well, I'm moving forward... slowly.

For now I'm just buying the ADAT bridge, it's silly cheap and they don't seem to turn up that often on eBay. At least in the few months I've been paying attention.

Mix ain't dead, it's just working the state fair circuit opening up for Y&T.
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brett

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2007, 02:36:52 pm »

LOL.... that's good.

i love working in PT with my Mix system and do not sotice a bit of diference when on an HD rig. I record and mix at 24/44 so HD doesn't matter to me. I have started using a lot of native intensive applications for sampling and amp modeling. This is why I have to upgrade. For the rock band and acoustic instrumentalist PT Mix is a viable solution still. My freind runs a successful studio and they run Mix cube on a dual 1.25 g4 on OS9. Granted they sum into an SSL which is why clients probably come. They see no imediate reason to change anything.

The ADAT bridge is cool but running an apogee front end via a x-digi card is truely integrated. Let me know if you want a mix plus. I am getting ready to sell mine with a nice set of plugs on the ilok.    
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NelsonL

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Re: Mix Plus
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2007, 04:53:03 pm »

Thanks Brett--

But things have evolved and I have to move slow at the moment purchase wise.

Plus, the Aurora 16 is in part for transfers off of our 2" 16 track, so while a Rosetta 800 might be nice it's not enough channels.
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