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Author Topic: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!  (Read 13899 times)

cerberus

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2007, 12:20:38 am »

Ben F wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 21:10

Just master to -0.3dBFS and you should be covered for most codecs.

that MYTH is so nice and convenient.  thank you for proving my point.  
you and everyone are cordially invited to discover the truth.

jeff dinces

Tomas Danko

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2007, 06:07:25 pm »

cerberus wrote on Thu, 18 October 2007 05:20

Ben F wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 21:10

Just master to -0.3dBFS and you should be covered for most codecs.

that MYTH is so nice and convenient.  thank you for proving my point.  
you and everyone are cordially invited to discover the truth.

jeff dinces


Myth or not.

It's just that for people who do not wish to investigate the matter further this will improve things quite a lot compared to the worse alternatives without the engineer having to spare any more thoughts about it all.

It's good advice, the way I look at it. Heck, it's even backed up by certain tests and numbers from Mr Paul Frindle. I mean, how bad can it be...
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Ben F

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2007, 09:28:07 pm »

cerberus wrote on Thu, 18 October 2007 13:50

Ben F wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 21:10

Just master to -0.3dBFS and you should be covered for most codecs.

that MYTH is so nice and convenient.  thank you for proving my point.  
you and everyone are cordially invited to discover the truth.

jeff dinces


The truth is none of my clients have ever complained, and that's good enough for me. I do far more complex encoding/decoding infrastructure for broadcasting so it's not really on the top of the priority list.
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cerberus

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2007, 01:30:29 am »

understood ben. same here, no complaints.  and i apologize for putting you on
the defensive. it is not any mastering engineer's fault that ca. 2007:

A. mp3 became the predominant delivery format for music.

B. music sales dropped by 15% over the past ten months.

---

i see an opportunity now for the mastering community to
suggest/promote a better delivery format for music.
like... one that the fans would pay for.

jeff dinces

Bob Olhsson

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2007, 08:58:00 pm »

Some of us have been screaming about this for ten years!

The other thing about lossy coders is that they all introduce a 1/3 octave filterbank into the equation both going in and coming out. Filters ring when they get clipped.

My wife wanted to put a tune up on myspace so we did a shootout between samplitude and i-tunes. The latest i-tunes seems to drop the level!

Alexey Lukin

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2007, 04:13:07 am »

Matt_G wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 07:43

What sounds worse the clipping on decode to PCM or the Mp3 compression?

It depends on amount of clipping. For many mp3 files with hot levels, quality can be significantly improved by non-clipped decoding, esp. when bit rates are low.


Matt_G wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 07:43

If consumers don't care about listening to uncompressed audio why worry whether it's clipping?

Because in uncompressed audio clipping is controlled by a mastering engineer. In case of mp3, clipping is usually not controlled by anyone caring about sound quality.
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Alexey Lukin

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2007, 04:16:25 am »

Ben F wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 21:10

Just master to -0.3dBFS and you should be covered for most codecs.

Not quite. For medium bit rates, dropping levels by 0.3...0.5 dB really improves the result, but it's not always sufficient: clipping can get higher than that.
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Matt_G

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2007, 11:13:02 am »

Alexey Lukin wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 18:13


It depends on amount of clipping. For many mp3 files with hot levels, quality can be significantly improved by non-clipped decoding, esp. when bit rates are low.


So the solution is to produce a decoder that eliminates the clipping while keeping the levels consistent with the uncompressed PCM version. Then get Apple to license this product for playback in iTunes/iPods. Is iZotope RX capable of doing this?

Quote:


Because in uncompressed audio clipping is controlled by a mastering engineer. In case of mp3, clipping is usually not controlled by anyone caring about sound quality.


My point exactly, if the consumer can't hear lossy Mp3 encoding are they going to hear clipping? If we lowered the level by 6db to prevent the decoder clipping they would certainly notice the level drop.  Laughing

Matt
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2007, 02:22:55 pm »

It's utterly silly to expect an ordinary listener to identify why they don't like the sound of something. If people don't like what they hear, they simply don't listen again, much less buy the CD or file. Digital clipping causes gross degradation from subsequent digital processing such as adjusting the digital volume control that is found on virtually every modern music player.

Tomas Danko

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2007, 05:48:53 pm »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 19:22

It's utterly silly to expect an ordinary listener to identify why they don't like the sound of something. If people don't like what they hear, they simply don't listen again, much less buy the CD or file. Digital clipping causes gross degradation from subsequent digital processing such as adjusting the digital volume control that is found on virtually every modern music player.


Very well said!
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Alexey Lukin

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2007, 06:17:54 pm »

Matt_G wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 11:13

Then get Apple to license this product for playback in iTunes/iPods. Is iZotope RX capable of doing this?

Yes, it is, but it's actually using Apple QuickTime to decode mp3. So, Apple iTunes (and all other players) just needs a good mastering limiter to bring peak levels back below 0 dBFS.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2007, 06:30:42 pm »

Alexey Lukin wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 23:17

Matt_G wrote on Mon, 22 October 2007 11:13

Then get Apple to license this product for playback in iTunes/iPods. Is iZotope RX capable of doing this?

Yes, it is, but it's actually using Apple QuickTime to decode mp3. So, Apple iTunes (and all other players) just needs a good mastering limiter to bring peak levels back below 0 dBFS.


Wouldn't it be too late for the limiter to remedy this problem after the decoder has already clipped the signal? And wouldn't a non-linear process such as a limiter make things even worse in such a case?

Lowering the source material level just a tad bit would make all that a moot point anyway.
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Alexey Lukin

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2007, 02:59:40 am »

The decoder can work in a non-clipping mode if players use its 32-bit FP decoding feature.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2007, 04:16:22 am »

Alexey Lukin wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 07:59

The decoder can work in a non-clipping mode if players use its 32-bit FP decoding feature.


Yes, and that would be ideal. But it turns out very few decoders are doing this, in reality.
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cerberus

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Re: Do mp3s of Loud Masters Clip?!
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2007, 08:41:12 am »

i got another request for a loud 192 mp3 last night.  
i suppose it is for the itunes store.
i feel so dirty.

jeff dinces
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