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Author Topic: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box  (Read 18895 times)

Ruairi O'Flaherty

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2004, 04:59:37 pm »

exit wrote on Fri, 30 April 2004 07:30

I work in Alsihad every day.


First off - do we have to use that ridiculous nickname here, I understood that bs is to be restricted to MARSH.

I always use the Waves DeEsser, Renaissance Comp, and Renaissance EQ 4.

As others have said here the bar is a lot higher now for digital eq/comp with the introduction of the Sony Oxford plugs and the MDW eq.  These may be cleaner than you are used to but I personally would rather have clean and controlable eq and comp and then add my colour (probably necessary for Hip-hop) if desired using plugs like the Inflator, Lo-Fi, Analog channel, DUY Valve/Tape and the Cranesong Phoenix.  I don't think it is unfair to Waves to say that those plugs are compromising your vocal chain.


Any bones you wanna throw would be great. I'm all for experimenting but we work on so many songs in a day that I never have time to play and try new things.

I figure you are working far higher up the ladder than I but you simply have to make the time to demo the newer plugs, the difference is night and day and you will seriously regret not doing so sooner.

As for the ess problem the Waves De-esser (not Ren) can work acceptably on some singers but this is pretty rare.  I was de-essing manually for serious mixes in the fashion other have described but it was time consuming (I still de-pop manually - HPF OXFEQ).  Recently I took some time to experiment with a particularly essy vocalist and set up an OXF compressor last in the vocal chain.  I used the internal eq to eq the sidechain and finally arrived at a setting that was remarkably transparent.  The OXF allows very accurate and responsive control over attack, hold and release times which is the key to avoiding smearing.  Also as it is fullband compression you are avoiding unneccesary spliting of the signal as per the Waves De-esser.  

Those using the OXF DYN should try the above, it was a revelation for me and has allow me to add acceptable amounts of high end to dull but essy vocals,

cheers,
Ruairi
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Richard

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2004, 07:01:11 pm »

Just a tiny bone.
Often the offending 's' 'f' 't' 'p' etc., at the beginning of a word, don't contain a lot of 'pitch' information.
I sometimes 'grab' a 'good' one and paste it in.
Richard
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David Schober

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2004, 07:36:07 pm »

First off - do we have to use that ridiculous nickname here, I understood that bs is to be restricted to MARSH.


I agree completely!  It's not professional.  It's pejorative and displays an agenda.  When criticism is needed, (name a DAW that doesn't) refraning from slang that invites a flaming threads can help rather than hurt the dialog....Something I hope this forum avoids!
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David Schober

George Massenburg

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2004, 11:37:19 pm »

Ruairi O'Flaherty wrote on Sat, 01 May 2004 15:59

exit wrote on Fri, 30 April 2004 07:30

I work in [Protools] every day.


First off - do we have to use that ridiculous nickname here, I understood that bs is to be restricted to MARSH.

I always use the Waves DeEsser, Renaissance Comp, and Renaissance EQ 4.

[...]

cheers,
Ruairi



You know, you're right, Ruairi.  I never really knew the point in it.

George

p.s. Are you going to be in Berlin?
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Immanuel Kuhrt

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2004, 07:04:58 am »

Total noob question:

Is Alsihad a nickname for ProTools?
I thought they where different systems?
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Disclaimer - I ain't no pro

sdevino

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2004, 10:14:55 am »

Alsihad is short for "All's I Had"  whichis followed by Pro Tools.

Mixerman and his crew in the MARSH do not allow posters to mention "Pro Tools" by name.

Others in the MARSH do not seem to mind.
I also think it is time to give up this pointless practice outside of MM's forum (he is entitled to moderate his forum anyway he see's fit IMO).

Steve
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Steve Devino

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exit

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2004, 12:05:53 pm »

I will try the editing tricks when I do mixing, but for ruff mixing I gotta keep the vocal together. I tried the C4 as recommended early in the thread and that was very cool. You definitely gotta play with it a bit, but that seemed to help. We're installing a new rig soon so I'll look out for the EQ's yall mentioned here.

As far as using the term [editor has replaced an arbitrary term for Protools], don't you think you're being a little too anal? There was no malicious intent, just habit really. Maybe I am working in Nuendo everyday, maybe Logic. Maybe Protools. Who cares? If there's gonna be a R/E/P vs. Marsh thing going on PSW I won't ever return. I enjoy both sides, and I enjoy the place as a whole being laid back. Loosen up a little people.

But, in the spirit of being a team player, I will expose my DAW: GARAGEBAND! Yes, I'm working in Garageband daily. It rocks! It blows the doors off of any DAW out there. I can actually get 8 ins with my optical input! 8!?!  I finished my new solo acapella album "When Do the G5 Laptops Come Out" and it sounds better than Ricky Martin and 50 Cent! Engineer of the Year Grammy here I come!!!!!!

No love lost  Laughing
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Mark *exit* Goodchild

"The buffet plate is peaches, plums, oranges and bananas... You can have those bananas."

Ruairi O'Flaherty

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2004, 01:54:41 pm »

George Massenburg wrote on Sun, 02 May 2004 04:37



p.s. Are you going to be in Berlin?


Hi George,

I am going to be in Berlin for all of the AES and then some, my wife and I are making an 8 day trip out of it.  I am really looking forward to it.  There is a Gearslutz dinner/meet on the Monday night, I'm sure anyone from this board would be welcome too.

BTW did you get any of my recent emails about the MDW issues?

cheers,
Ruairi
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Ruairi O'Flaherty

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2004, 02:05:50 pm »

exit wrote on Sun, 02 May 2004 17:05

 We're installing a new rig soon so I'll look out for the EQ's yall mentioned here.


Hey Mark,

you'll be amazed at the difference.  Not long after I switched to HD I had to remix an in the box track I had done with all Waves Q and RenEQ.  I replaced them all with the Sony OXFEQ and the mix was massively improved in almost every way.  BTW what direction are you going with the new rig?

Quote:

As far as using the term [editor has removed an arbitrary name for ProTools], don't you think you're being a little too anal? There was no malicious intent, just habit really. Maybe I am working in Nuendo everyday, maybe Logic. Maybe Protools. Who cares? If there's gonna be a R/E/P vs. Marsh thing going on PSW I won't ever return. I enjoy both sides, and I enjoy the place as a whole being laid back. Loosen up a little people.


Apologies if I came off a little heavy sounding and I definitely do not want to start a PSW vs R/E/P vibe.  I personally will not visit MARSH because of Mixerman's moderation there and I'd love to see the two boards remain very distinct in style and content.  I know that you did not mean anything by using the term Alsihad but unfortunately many others do and have used that and other tactics to cause flames, arguments and rants all over some of my favourite forums.

I can't wait to hear some of your Garageband tracks Razz

cheers,
Ruairi
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exit

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2004, 04:48:59 pm »

Ruairi O'Flaherty wrote on Sun, 02 May 2004 14:05


BTW what direction are you going with the new rig?

Ruairi


Well, I'm getting an "A" room going for my main client. We're installing an SSL 6056 which we got for the low-low. Unfortunately I have been a bit handcuffed by budget so I'm not able to get the rig I want, but it will be a good working one. A new G5, PT HD Accel 2, 4 96 i/o's, Sync. After all the talk about Oxford and MDW up here I will be be trying to add that to my list of Plug-ins. I'm wondering if we've got some one-sided opinions about the MDW stuff???? Rolling Eyes Just kidding.

I'm also hoping to do one of two things soon also: 1) Build my own rig, 2) build my own studio. Right now neither is necessary tho cuz I work everyday in other places. It would be a waste of money!

But back to the original topic-My point about EQing in the box was this: on the console you just twist knobs and listen. On DAW's, you watch your mouse movements and look at the EQ curve, rather than listen. At least this is my little roadblock. I always go right at certain frequencies, I've got a mental stump here I'm trying to hop over. That's what I meant about turning the screen off!

exit
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Mark *exit* Goodchild

"The buffet plate is peaches, plums, oranges and bananas... You can have those bananas."

Ruairi O'Flaherty

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2004, 05:15:52 pm »

exit wrote on Sun, 02 May 2004 21:48



Well, I'm getting an "A" room going for my main client. We're installing an SSL 6056 which we got for the low-low. Unfortunately I have been a bit handcuffed by budget so I'm not able to get the rig I want, but it will be a good working one. A new G5, PT HD Accel 2, 4 96 i/o's, Sync. After all the talk about Oxford and MDW up here I will be be trying to add that to my list of Plug-ins. I'm wondering if we've got some one-sided opinions about the MDW stuff???? Rolling Eyes Just kidding.




That all sounds cool, I'm on PT6.2.3/Dual G5/Accel and a 192i/o.  I have never heard the 96i/o, some say they are poor compared to the 192.  Of course some people wouldn't touch the 192 so I guess whatever works for you.


Quote:


But back to the original topic-My point about EQing in the box was this: on the console you just twist knobs and listen. On DAW's, you watch your mouse movements and look at the EQ curve, rather than listen. At least this is my little roadblock. I always go right at certain frequencies, I've got a mental stump here I'm trying to hop over. That's what I meant about turning the screen off!

exit


I agree with you totally on this.  I've been mixing in the box for about 2 years now and I still spend way too much time looking rather than listening.  The nature of the mouse interface means that you have to watch what you are doing and that is not a good thing IMHO.  I've investigated the idea of a touchscreen that I could mount flat in my desk next to the mouse.  I would open my plug-ins on that and simply slide my finger up and down until that band of eq sounds right, I think it would be more tactile and less visual.

Anyhow best of luck with the new studio,

cheers,
Ruairi
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David Schober

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2004, 05:27:55 pm »

Hi Mark,

Apologies from myself as well.  Ruairi perfectly expressed my views as to why our hackles get raised when things start to smell like the rants and flames from the past.  We're all looking for this fourm to be free from such antics that MM has seen fit to run his forum with.  (I guess it's not a free speech zone, literally or in spirit...you gotta toe the facist line)  But I digress....  Smile

As for you having difficulties with seeing a screen instead of using a knob, I understand.  However, I'm sure I'm not the only old school analog guy that will confess that they tend to eq...on any equalizer...the same frequencies.  I'll go so far as to say what really trips me up is that the MDW and the Filterbank eq graphs are pretty similar...and what I'm used to.  However when I go to the Oxford, the dB resolution is totally  different.  I have to be careful to look at the numbers and listen, not look.  It would perhaps be a good thing to standardize eq graphing screens.  I hate to admit it, but the Oxford GUI makes it less likely for me to use it.  The MDW and Filterbank push, pull buttons and sliders make much more sense than trying to rotate a knob with a mouse.  I know I shouldn't be predjudiced by the GUI, but I am. Listening only with one's ears is hard.

Anyway, as soon as I saw Garageband I predicted that within a year or so there will be a major hit done, at least in part with that program.

May yours be the first.
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David Schober

exit

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2004, 10:48:15 pm »

Guys-I was joking about Garageband. I haven't used it yet. I am  waiting on the G5 laptop tho! My G4 Titanium just busted a screen hinge. It's on it's last leg.
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Mark *exit* Goodchild

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David Schober

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2004, 11:45:49 am »

ya got me...but I still stand by my prediction
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David Schober

MedicineDog

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Re: [Rant] EQ'ing in the box
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2004, 02:49:34 pm »

exit wrote on Sun, 02 May 2004 13:48


But back to the original topic-My point about EQing in the box was this: on the console you just twist knobs and listen. On DAW's, you watch your mouse movements and look at the EQ curve, rather than listen. At least this is my little roadblock. I always go right at certain frequencies, I've got a mental stump here I'm trying to hop over. That's what I meant about turning the screen off!


One thing you might try is to bypass the EQ, make your best guess as to the tweak you need to make, adjust the EQ, and then put the EQ back in and compare.  This way, you're not watching the mouse move the EQ controls and looking at the resulting curve while you're trying to listen.  If your EQ has an A/B mode, that makes it all that much easier to compare changes between settings.


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-Aaron Anderson

"Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge" D. Henley
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