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Author Topic: Sennheiser MD 409  (Read 44233 times)

dofo

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Sennheiser MD 409
« on: September 25, 2007, 10:51:05 PM »

Hi there folks,

Does anyone out there have tech/spec docs for the original Sennheiser MD409 or any of its Ux versions (U3 is the one I see the most it seems)?  

In particular, a legible, graphed frequency curve for the mic would be very helpful to me right now.

I've got lots of different tech docs myself, so a trade would be in order, I presume...


Cheers,

Tillmann
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Markus Aalto

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2007, 04:27:48 PM »

Information: http://www.coutant.org/md409u3/index.html

Specification sheet pdf: http://www.coutant.org/md409u3/md409u3.pdf

I've been told BF509 is exactly the same microphone. I have one. I can't understand high prices of these mics - especially MD 409. I've seen many times some sellers on eBay asks almost similar prices than how much used AKG C414's are.... What makes MD 409's so expensive? Because Stevie Ray Vaughan used them? I paid about 60 euros couple of years ago. It's realistic price for used BF509. It is just normal dynamic instrument microphone (from German high quality manufacturer).
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ricknroll

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2007, 01:16:36 PM »

Markus,

If you do a search on the PSW forums, you'll find that some people LOVE the sound of this mic on electric guitar.  For example, Oliver Archut wrote, "MD409 the greatest close distance mics for 4x12, etc..." in the following thread:    http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/7565/0/16/ 1550

Rick Hedges
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Markus Aalto

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 06:48:56 AM »

Rick,
It is good microphone but i can't understand "Buy it now" prices from $399 to $499 like someones asking on eBay. It is possible to get C414 for the same price. Of course MD409's are rare.

I use usually stereo set up on guitar in the studio. A pair of large diaphgram mics on "custom made" 2x12" stereo cab with tube pre amp and 2 channel tube power amp (if guitarist doesn't want to use own amplifiers). I've used Sennheiser only in some live concerts yet. In that kind  conditions is more difficult to hear all the details in sound. Maybe i need to test that BF509 again and compare it to some other ones that i've used more often... Oliver wrote MD409 and MD509 but i think also BF509 (Black Fire) is the same(?).
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 12:40:00 PM »

409 and 509 are exactly the same.  I have both.  The difference was to whom and where they were marketed, AFAIK.

The difference between a 409 and a 414, is that the 409 is the perfect guitar and bass amp mic.  There's something about its response that allows you to just throw it on and not have to use any EQ, and you get a great guitar tone.  

A current fad is to use a SM57 with  Royer 121.  That's $1,200 worth of mic there!  I prefer the sound of a single 409 to those two.  And on a guitar amp, I prefer a 409 to any 414 that costs $500.

They were a $450 or so mic when they were brand new.  They are still in high demand by the people who know them.  The fact that they are no longer being made, and are still in demand dictates those prices.  I own four of them.  If I ever have to record amplified music, they go with me.  They are my first choice for amps.  
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

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John Monforte

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2007, 12:19:53 AM »

I agree with JJ here - I myself have three of them in cherry condition.

They also work well on rack toms. They take high levels more cleanly than most dynamics.

Are they better than a C414? They are only worth what the market will bear. Sennheiser supposedly makes an updated version which I have not heard, but with that possible exception I know of nothing else that works quite like they do.

Around here the talk is mostly about large diaphragm condensers. As nice as they are, relying solely on them can result in rather monochromatic recordings. The MD409 is quite different and not a one-trick-pony either. I'm not selling!

By the way, it is a fairly modern mic. I am of the opinion that the art of microphone design has not been lost and future classics are being built right now. Better identify them and buy them while they are still affordable!
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Markus Aalto

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2007, 09:12:00 AM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 19:40

409 and 509 are exactly the same.  I have both.  The difference was to whom and where they were marketed, AFAIK.

 And on a guitar amp, I prefer a 409 to any 414 that costs $500.
 


I've learned on this forum that J.J. does not love C414's.  Twisted Evil

I had my BF 509 on stage yesterday night. It worked. Anyway the guitar amp wasn't maybe the best sounding one and haven't heard that guitarist many times before... Still need more experience get to know that mic better...

It depends also about preferred sound. I'm a big fan of Dann Huff's "Californian era" sounds and Also Michael Landau's sounds from late 80's and 90's. Typical setup i use is MESA Quad preamp + multieffects + Marshall 50+50 power amp(or QSC in some cases). I've found large diaphgram condenser mics more suitable for those sounds. In the studio sound levels aren't too high...

I believe MD409/BF509 are good universal guitar amp mics. I also believe that Stevie Ray Vaughan used them for reason. Anyway i still don't understand $500 price for buying one in used condition.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2007, 02:04:07 PM »

My mentor engineered and mixed Michael's "Tales from the Bulge," and my first paying session as an engineer was for Michael.  I love that guy.  Great tones.  However, he asked me to use an SM57 on his session.

Yeah, I must not like 414s.  That's why I own five of them, but I sell every U87 that comes my way.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Markus Aalto

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2007, 05:39:40 PM »

Sorry about my slightly incomplete comment.. If i remember your website right i've seen there grey C414's with CK12's... Not with "teflon" capsules. I had newer versions in my mind. Maybe i didn't remember exactly what you have commented....

I know this goes off topic but must write a short comment. In Michael Landau's cd "Tales from the Bulge" most of sounds are more rough. They are nice anyway. Difficult to name some specific examples about the sounds but some older Herp Albert cd's comes to my mind like:  Keep Your Eye On Me, Under A Spanish Moon. Wilson Phillips cd's and countless other ones...  He has played so much.... I don't know what kind mics he has normally used....?
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2007, 12:30:46 PM »

From my mentor, Alan Hirshberg:

Quote:

We always used 57s. Many times, Michael would actually tweak the position himself. As for amps, it depends on whether he was using is Bradshaw rack or not. At the time, he had a Bogner preamp in the rack. I can't remember what power amp. He also had a Bogner combo amp, and a rather large collection of vintage Marshall heads.

On the Burning Water sessions he used the Marshalls, as well as a Matchless and a Vox.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Markus Aalto

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2007, 04:43:38 PM »

Hmm. The discussion goes quite far from the title...  Embarassed  This forum is amazing place to find and get many kind information related to microphones. Thanks J.J.

What features gives justification to call microphone "high end"? Price? Manufacturing country? Suitablibity to some specific use? SM 57 is quite interesting microphone. I believe no one will call it high end microphone but it works well on guitar amps, drums and it is also president's speach microphone too.
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Oliver Archut

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2007, 06:18:15 PM »

"Anyway i still don't understand $500 price for buying one in used condition"

It is the same old story more people want to buy those 409 and not to many are available! As far as I remember in the days you can get them there were about four times what a SM57 went for...

So today the in demand price reflects that, about four times the price of a new SM5x...

Unfortunately Sennheiser lost the "Know How" to make them...

Best regards,

Oliver
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panman

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2007, 09:18:59 PM »

Well, at least the MD409 capsules can be found in some other Sennheiser and Grundig mics. I have a few and when I will have time I will try to implant one in an AKG D14. Doesn`t even look too much different.
Then there is Echolette 14ES, which is the basically the same mic. Though rare as well, it pops up on Ebay slightly more often than the MD409 and sell not so dear.
Regards,
       Esa
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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2007, 09:30:14 PM »

The Echolette is a low budged version of it, not real a 409 but it is very close, never heard about the Grundig ones, but you can find the capsules in several Uher microphones.


Best regards,

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panman

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2007, 06:08:08 PM »

I did implant one of those "Grundigs" into an AKG D14A.

The result was a surprise to me. My "bastard 409" works really nice. It`s a pity I don`t have a real MD409 to compare. But it stood up against my heap of MD421s.

The frequency responce on axis close-miking is pretty much the same with slightly less high-end on "the Bastard" judging by my ears. Off-axis makes the differences more audible, the cardioid on MD421 being wider. And the mic really can handle high SPLs at least as good as MD421. Further testing did also prove, that I have found another mic capable of handling the very problematic and complex sound of a Steelpan.

I confess, that I was dismissing the MD409s before this thread. That is because there have been previous threads about it and in some pictures I saw the same capsule as my Grundigs have and for me those Grundigs were crap and even looked like toys. But now I replaced the crappy cable into a proper one and I also noticed, that there was a hi-ohmic trafo inside the DIN-plug and without it( with proper impedance) they sound good, but yet take very little space. Only a bit more than the capsule size.
They are sold as Grundig GDSM 202.
What is the difference between Es-14 and MD409?
Regards,
       Esa

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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2007, 07:07:27 PM »

Oliver, I thought the difference between the Echolette ES14 and the Sennheiser MD409 was like the difference between a Neumann U47 and a Telefunken U47?  Same manufacturer, different badge.  No?

I have had both the Grundig and Sennheiser versions of the MDS-1 stereo dynamic, and they are identical to my ear.  They seem to be identical to the 409, as far as I can hear, as well.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

vpham

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2008, 07:31:53 PM »

Hey there, does ANYONE know where i can purchase a Sennheiser 409 mic??? (you know, lil black mic with the gold top, good all around mic)  I have one with a broken capsule, might as well buy another one....  
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2008, 11:31:38 PM »

They can be fond regularly on eBay.  Not cheap, but they are there.  I recommend the 409-U3s.  the 409-Ns that I have found tend to have damaged capsules, even though they look cooler.  
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Ken Barlow

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2008, 02:29:50 AM »

I just had the opportunity to check out the E906 for a live R&R band on Sat night. I have used MD409's in the past and I do think they are the best dynamic GTR mic going but what I heard from the E906 was fat. I used 3 different mics on a lead guitar player that night and was most impressed by the E906. The other mics were a E609 silver and an Audix I5. I know about 4 or 5 PPL that work for Sennheiser and I am told that an E series mic is going to be announced soon that will rival a KSM105. Probably about the same $ though but I got no other info to share.

Ken
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seedyunderbelly.com

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2008, 12:02:12 PM »

vpham,

Try Madooma,  Martin has helped me find these types of things nice ones also.
He sold me perfect md409/M88  etc.

j

Steve Hudson

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2008, 12:14:31 PM »

You could also look for an Echolette ES14, which is the same mic as an MD409.
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amorris

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2008, 02:23:28 PM »

I have an MD409 (i did pay alot, but it sounds great) but the capsule is loose inside. I want to open it but dont want to break it. is there a way to free the front grill's glue without forcing it? I assume it is constructed like the 421 where the front and back grills are glued around the center rib.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2008, 03:22:56 PM »

The 409 capsule is actually held in place by foam, in the four corners of the grill housing.  it is likely that your foam has deteriorated from humidity and needs to be replaced.  (You can do that by cutting out new pieces for yourself.)

Anyway, there are two plastic pieces on the bottom side of the mic, next to the XLR stem,  Use a small screw driver to pull those out.  They are covering the screws.  Undo the screws, and the grills will comes off.  It's pretty simple, actually.  
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

amorris

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2008, 03:53:40 PM »

Thanks! I will try it tonight.
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Silvertone

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2008, 09:15:53 AM »

From what I've been told the 906 (not the 609) was their attempt to get back to the original 409 sound, has anybody a/b'd the two?

I was using a MD504 over a 57 on guitar cab when it first came out. Like a 57 with more low end I found (if that's what the track called for).
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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2008, 02:13:40 PM »

Is you search in the Whatever Works forum, I've posted sound clips.  The 906 is certainly more like the 409 than either of the 609s, but it's still not the same.  It's good though.  
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2008, 09:30:07 AM »

Thanks JJ, Got the screws out, replaced the foam, and mic is great!
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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2008, 01:14:13 PM »

Glad I could be of help!
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2008, 02:12:15 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 17:40

409 and 509 are exactly the same.  I have both.  The difference was to whom and where they were marketed, AFAIK.



I always wondered about that about some sennheiser mics.
What are the differences between an MD409/MD509
and for 441/541 or even 421/521.
they look the same, and to this point, MD441 and MD541 sound the same to me. was it just that 'blackfire' series that made some mics go from a '4' to a '5' prefix? Or are just the later more recent?
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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2008, 06:29:34 PM »

Regarding the 409/509 question, I called Sennheiser USA several years ago and spoke with product specialist Scott Houston (a nice guy!) and he told me that Sennheiser had a franchise agreement with a network of pro audio dealers to exclusively distribute the 4xx series of mics.When a number of music stores wanted to sell the line, Senn. realized they were missing out on a lot of sales. The solution was to offer the same mics with a "Blackfire" designation and change the number scheme to 5xx. So.....409 from pro audio guys and 509 from music stores.

Regards,Toby
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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2008, 12:52:15 PM »

Toby, that's what I was referring to on the first page.  I didn't know about the agreement on the 4xx series though, as being the reason for the name change when being sold in music stores.  Thanks for filling in the blanks.

It's funny though how 509s are usually $100 cheaper on eBay from the same seller, even though it's the exact same mic!
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2008, 03:12:00 AM »

teleric wrote on Thu, 13 November 2008 19:12

J.J. Blair wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 17:40

409 and 509 are exactly the same.  I have both.  The difference was to whom and where they were marketed, AFAIK.



I always wondered about that about some sennheiser mics.
What are the differences between an MD409/MD509
and for 441/541 or even 421/521.
they look the same, and to this point, MD441 and MD541 sound the same to me. was it just that 'blackfire' series that made some mics go from a '4' to a '5' prefix? Or are just the later more recent?


Hi all

If I remember correctly, there is a slight difference between 421 and 521. The 521´s I have used did not have the LF roll-off (the S/M (speech/music) switch located around the xlr plug) So in that case 421 and 521 are close, but really not the same... Other than that, I really don´t think there is any difference.

I don´t think there are similar differences between any of the other MD4 series vs BF5 series. (more correctly: I don´t know of any)

In Norway, the same dealers sold both the series, and they were available at the same time. I seem to remember something about the BF5 series being marketed as the "road" alternative (eg more robust), but I have no clue if this was just something the norwegian/scandinavian/european distributors said to explain the differences that were really only in the model number. The sound company I worked for at the time never had 521´s, only 421´s.


LarsK
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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2008, 04:41:33 PM »

Just realized MD409 / BF509 are transformerless. It must be one factor that affects to sound too. Not only the mic element  design. It should be interesting to try SM57 with bypassed transformer or with Oliver's transformer! Btw. i think SM77, rare variation of SM57 (with shorter body) is transformerless too.

I posted sample file that includes MD409/BF509 guitar tracks to thread:" Mics / techniques for creating high end "Californian" guitar sounds?"
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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2009, 09:24:32 PM »

This thread prompted me to run a quick test of the frequency response of the 409, 509, e609.  I ran Pink Noise generated by Smaart through a JBL VP7212MDP powered wedge, with the mic diaphragm about 11" out from the face.  I EQ'd the output to the VDP7212M through a KT DN370 GEQ to a reasonably flat response.

The image has the following traces:

Brown= reference trace
Blue= e906
Pink= 509
Green= 409 "Echolette"

index.php/fa/11764/0/

It was not easy to match-up the gains precisely, but the overall responses are interesting - the entire group is very similar.  The e906 has just a touch greater sensitivity near 80Hz, but otherwise nearly lays on-top of it's predecessors - however, the whole experiment is very gain dependent and the traces were matched by-eye.    

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bo putnam

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2009, 09:29:01 PM »

Then, I ran the venerable SM57 too.

Brown= reference trace
Blue= e906
Pink= 509
Green= 409 "Echolette"
Purple = 57

index.php/fa/11765/0/

The 57 has the pronounced 1 octave peak centered at approx. 6.7kHz.  It really is pretty damned good, as we all know.



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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2009, 11:04:56 PM »

Bo, have you listened to my soundfiles of the 409 v. both 609s and the 906?

BTW, the 509 and the MD409-U3 are the same mic.  The Echolette is essentially a MD409-N.  
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

bo putnam

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2009, 12:21:20 AM »


J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 25 March 2009 20:04

Bo, have you listened to my soundfiles of the 409 v. both 609s and the 906?

BTW, the 509 and the MD409-U3 are the same mic.  The Echolette is essentially a MD409-N.  

JJ...

I sure did - great stuff.  Those soundfiles compelled me to the e906 vs the e600-series a few years ago.  I owe you.   Cool I had not had their ancestors in-hand until lately and was curious on measuring their responses, which only confirmed what our ears heard from your work.  

re: 509 and 409.  I know - I've read all your posts on it, and those of others.  

But in-short, Sennheiser did a great job with the e906 - it is virtually indistinguishable from it's predecessors.  
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2009, 01:16:06 PM »

Cool!  Yeah, I can hear the difference in the top end, but it's so much better than the 609s, and is totally usable.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

MagnetoSound

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2009, 02:43:54 PM »

It's a shame the 906 looks so naff, with that 'e' on the grille ...

Sounds pretty good though, preferred the flat setting. Might give it a go.

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JGauthier

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2009, 11:06:02 PM »

Anyone else notice the e906 has about a 5 db hotter output than the md409? Or is that just my MD 409... Shocked

I really really like the 906 too. I personally think its a step sideways from the 409- just as good but different. And I really like high bump silver filter setting... and the flat.

But anyone else notice a sizeable difference in output? I haven't looked at the specs...
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