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Author Topic: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?  (Read 6134 times)

bslobodian

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A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« on: September 12, 2007, 06:41:16 PM »

I wonder if you guys always A/B (same loudness) with your clients ? I find myself doing less and less of that cause it almost always get confusing for them (which leads to the inevitable " I don't know-maybe-what-do-you-think... to get back to what I did...)
What's your usual practice or advice with that ?

Hey ! Happy Wump13 (I envy you...)

Bernard Slobodian
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TotalSonic

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2007, 07:22:37 PM »

bslobodian wrote on Wed, 12 September 2007 18:41

I wonder if you guys always A/B (same loudness) with your clients ? I find myself doing less and less of that cause it almost always get confusing for them (which leads to the inevitable " I don't know-maybe-what-do-you-think... to get back to what I did...)
What's your usual practice or advice with that ?

Hey ! Happy Wump13 (I envy you...)

Bernard Slobodian


I ALWAYS do level matched a/b's between source and processed streams regardless of whether it is unattended or in front of a client.  For me there simply is no other way of determining whether the changes being made in processing are truly making the track sound better - or if instead you are just getting deceived into thinking whatever is louder is "better."

If the client doesn't find the processing is sounding better at a matched level a/b than the original often this is good indication to try a less drastic approach or to start back from scratch, and to listen more carefully to elements that the client is liking better on the original source.  For clients that really "can't hear a difference" or that drag the session down with lots of requests that are very counter productive then I'll discuss with them what I'm hearing, what I'm doing, why I'm taking the approach that I am, and try to find out more about what they're looking for.   I'll als check at that point as to whether they prefer to let me to work at my usual speed that will let them come out of the session with a reference that they can assess in their more familiar listening environments, or if they want instead to pay for a good deal of session time to try a lot of different approaches.  

Communication is the key here, along with keeping a very open mind about what it will take to get the client happy with the end results, and also a good level of confidence in your own listening, decisions, and work methods.

Best regards,
Steve Berson  

Dave Davis

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 08:00:42 AM »

Yeah... what Steve said!

Ability to do this easily and transparently is my #1 requirement for a monitor console.  Everything else is "nice to have".

-d-
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Andy Krehm

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 12:07:54 PM »

I find A/B-ing helpful for reasons stated above. I don't do it as much after the first track that I master unless things aren't sounding goood.

There is never any problem with client confusion. Either the track is improved or it stays roughly the same b/c it should.

Jerry Tubb

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 12:35:04 PM »

Andy Krehm wrote on Thu, 13 September 2007 11:07

I don't do it as much after the first track.


My approach as well. Get it done early in the session. Once you're confident that the mastering is an improvement, then move ahead, and keep moving. Check your self again about halfway through the day.

I also think it's important to A/B without matching level, since gain is an actual adjustment being made.

One could waste a lot of time A/B'ing every song, over and over, ad infinitum.

JT
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TotalSonic

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2007, 01:08:44 PM »

Jerry Tubb wrote on Thu, 13 September 2007 12:35

Andy Krehm wrote on Thu, 13 September 2007 11:07

I don't do it as much after the first track.


My approach as well. Get it done early in the session. Once you're confident that the mastering is an improvement, then move ahead, and keep moving. Check your self again about halfway through the day.
I also think it's important to A/B without matching level, since gain is an actual adjustment being made.

One could waste a lot of time A/B'ing every song, over and over, ad infinitum.

JT



It's one button push for me - takes about 2 minutes per song in a session.  For me this isn't ever a waste of time.  Obviously ommv.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bblackwood

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 01:27:35 PM »

I A/B every track during the process - it's too easy for the track to be 'different' but not 'better'.

And I always A/B at matched levels (as close as I can ear-ball it)...
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Brad Blackwood
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aivoryuk

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2007, 01:49:32 PM »

are we talking just a/bing with eq settings???

cause i'm thinking that if your comparing a mix to a heavily limited master at the same listening level, then the original mix will prob sound better.
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jdg

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2007, 02:21:15 PM »

exactly!

but thats why i like to A/B  so, i can try to get the "super loud and heavily limited" track still sounding as dynamic as the source.
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john mcCaig
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TotalSonic

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2007, 02:27:51 PM »

aivoryuk wrote on Thu, 13 September 2007 13:49

are we talking just a/bing with eq settings???

cause i'm thinking that if your comparing a mix to a heavily limited master at the same listening level, then the original mix will prob sound better.


I do my A/B's between the source and the completely processed stream - including not only the analog process chain, but also including the results of any clipping at the ADC, any digital eq's or other processors placed after the ADC, and any digital limiting and dithering being done.  My DAW app has a real time pass through monitoring option that lets me loop back post-processing to a DAC that makes this possible.  At the flick of a switch I can also check out things just post the ADC so I can hear what the effect of the limiters are on things.  I like to hear exactly what is going on - not try and deceive myself or the client.  

Best regards,
Steve Berson

aivoryuk

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 03:13:11 PM »

ok cool,

one of the things that i tend to do if a/bing and in general is i just turn the mix up using a limter or the faders and just seeing how it sits (if i know loudness is going to be a request)

this came in handy with the last wump because i went sraight in with my first effort and started doing all this eq and then when compared to the original mix with the faders up i prefered that version. if i had just done what i normally do i would have saved myself some time and agro
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2007, 01:55:27 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 13 September 2007 12:27

I A/B every track during the process - it's too easy for the track to be 'different' but not 'better'.

And I always A/B at matched levels (as close as I can ear-ball it)...
If there's any "trick" to good mastering, this is the one!

Peter Beckmann

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2007, 02:40:31 AM »

I like to A/B the unprocessed against the fully processed track as close to level matched as I can. I do A/B each track, but also I like to A/B the already processed tracks against the one I'm currently working on to make sure they sound like they belong on the same record.

I probably do a bit more A/Bing with attended sessions, but once I'm tuned it to the project and the client likes where we're going I don't feel the need to keep showing them what I'm doing.


PB
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2007, 03:57:22 AM »

Peter Beckmann wrote on Fri, 14 September 2007 01:40

 once I'm tuned it to the project and the client likes where we're going I don't feel the need to keep showing them what I'm doing.


Same idea here Peter, with regard to A/B/C-ing...

To A/B the "before and after" is important, especially in the early part of the session, at both matched and unmatched levels, to make sure you're improving the mixes... and for the attending clients' enjoyment. Sometimes I'll spend the first hour just listening to the original mixes, making notes.

But also to B/C each new track with the ones you've already mastered, for project consistency... which becomes increasingly important as the session progresses.

That said, I still like to look thru the windshield... at where the session is going, more than looking in the rearview mirror.

In other words, 90 percent monitoring thru the mastering chain , making adjustments, 10 percent comparing to the original mixes.

But that's just how I roll...

JT
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Bob Boyd

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2007, 05:06:51 PM »

Jerry Tubb wrote on Fri, 14 September 2007 02:57


Same idea here Peter, with regard to A/B/C-ing...



Ever A/B/C'd with AC/DC?
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Bob Boyd
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dave-G

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2007, 07:15:56 PM »

Bob Boyd wrote on Fri, 14 September 2007 17:06

Ever A/B/C'd with AC/DC?

No, but I've seen ads for that in the "casual encounters" on craigslist.

-dave
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bblackwood

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2007, 09:43:34 PM »

dave-G wrote on Fri, 14 September 2007 18:15

Bob Boyd wrote on Fri, 14 September 2007 17:06

Ever A/B/C'd with AC/DC?

No, but I've seen ads for that in the "casual encounters" on craigslist.

Which begs that answer I'd rather not know the answer to...
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Brad Blackwood
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2007, 01:37:17 AM »

Bob Boyd wrote on Fri, 14 September 2007 16:06

Ever A/B/C'd with AC/DC?


Yes, but never AB'd with ABBA.

And after all the ABC'ing is done, it's time to burn CD's  Rolling Eyes

JT
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Adam Dempsey

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2007, 12:11:29 AM »

I always A/B level matched via the console's source monitor offset (and when matched by ear & VU that reading indicates the gain change so it's easy to answer any attended queries on that without misleading via monitor level jumps). After establishing overall sonic changes I'm happy to A-B any inherent level change, talking it through with the client.

[edit]: and yes, have A-B'd multiple ACDC remasters...  Wink
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Adam Dempsey
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cerberus

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2007, 05:03:51 AM »

i think that doing attended sessions is blending mastering with
psychotherapy.   for one thing: if you make a tweak that
you especially like, you'd better have a good poker
face if you are going to turn around and ask
someone in the room to do an a-b.  

i prefer to let clients hear refs on their own systems.
this way, i can blend mastering with market
research instead of ego massaging.

you are going to hear these opinions anyway when the client asks for a recall because someone
close to them has pointed out a flaw that they are now not happy about;
and they want it fixed (for free) before they pay you.

jeff dinces

Adam Dempsey

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2007, 07:57:29 PM »

I hear what you're saying Jeff, and the client of course gets their Ref anyway, to approve on a familiar system/environment. Still, during mastering they generally really appreciate being more than a passive part of the session other than edits/fades, and learning the benefit of A/Bing at matched levels.
Honestly, not too many recalls/revisions here in the last 12 months, fwiw.
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Adam Dempsey
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Ben F

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2007, 09:05:14 PM »

When I used to work in hi-fi there was an old trick of having the speakers that we wanted to sell on the switcher turned up a dB or 2. You'd do an A/B and the louder one always sounded better to the customers.
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Andy Krehm

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2007, 10:30:14 PM »

Ben F wrote on Mon, 17 September 2007 21:05

When I used to work in hi-fi there was an old trick of having the speakers that we wanted to sell on the switcher turned up a dB or 2. You'd do an A/B and the louder one always sounded better to the customers.

You are absolutely correct. A little or a lot more volume almost always makes people think the music is better.

On the other hand,  it doesn't pay to trick clients at a mastering session b/c they take the masters and check them out in various systems and with their bandmates or friends!

jdg

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2007, 10:54:55 PM »

try find clients without friends.

srlsy tho..

i just had a mastering session over AIM.
that was fun.
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john mcCaig
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cerberus

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Re: A/B'ing with clients: what's your practice ?
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2007, 11:28:58 PM »

hey adam; tony's rooms are quite better than mine for clients to be in.
an investment like that has to pay off. i think about investing in gear
and a room that will allow me to work fast enough. and i think
a fran manzella etc. designed room is a productivity tool.
which i hope someday i could afford (to finance).

but still i prefer not to lead clients into choices. i sold them the mastering job,
now it is easy to sell a little "glue" or "sparkle" or "edge". but it's their music.
 
so i notice value in the kind of input i can get from spreading
out the work and giving it all room to breathe and gel
as music or let the ego's have their say,
as they always will anyway.  

i think such perspective is also priceless in it's own way. i wouldn't want to lose it
no matter how comfortable and accurate sounding at every listening
position, and efficient a room i may someday build might be.

jeff dinces
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