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Author Topic: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged  (Read 8508 times)

Fox

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2007, 11:52:44 am »

mgod wrote on Fri, 14 September 2007 10:18

jimmyjazz wrote on Thu, 13 September 2007 13:06


Doubtful, given that I hold a masters degree in mechanical engineering from a top 10 American engineering school, not to mention the title Principal Engineer for the company where I've spent the past 14+ years of my life.

No offense intended here, but that doesn't really mean much, does it? Goergie Bush the Lesser graduated from Yale with a degree, and has held the title CEO of a number of companies. So its not a good reference. What people actually do is what counts. I can't tell you how many well-educated EE's I've met who have contributed little to audio except attitude and degree spouting, as well as some brilliant self-taught folks who build real usable stuff.

Technically speaking, my brother is a rocket scientist. He now says his college years were a waste except that he can brag that he is one, given that he's never spent a day doing anything with it. Our father never got past 8th grade in a village in eastern Hungary, but he built analog computers in our basement in the 60's.

Your "qualifiers" may make you an expert, but they don't make you informed or correct.

DS


I probably shouldn't get into this, but:

You know this was an idiotic thing to post right? You've basically just told the man, "Yeah, you worked your ass off all the way through school, payed tens of thousands of dollars to educate yourself and learn to work in your chosen field, scrapped your way through years of hard times so you can earn the title of  a Master of your chosen field, but fuck you, 'cause that doesn't mean shit to me."

Of course there are brilliant self educated people and dumb-as-hell college graduates, but I'd have to say that these people are the exception, not the rule. Seems to me that someone who holds a frikkin' master's degree and has worked in that same field for 14+ years has a whole lot of credibility and deserves some respect when offering his professional opinion on matters that they work with everyday, unless they somehow prove themselves to be an idiot.

With the above post you've just disregarded what is likely over 20 years of experience.

Not cool, nor intelligent IMO.

Fox
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jimmyjazz

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2007, 12:34:25 pm »

Fox, thanks for the backup, but mgod's point is valid -- to an extent.  

My background doesn't mean I'm automatically right, but to be honest, that wasn't what I was trying to say.  I disclosed my past because max implied that I would make a horrible engineer in response to my accusation of same.  

I suppose I could be horrible, but as you say, is that likely?  I certainly don't think I'm horrible.

Anyway, I was reluctant to be so self-aggrandizing, but max pissed me off.  I should have known better.  (And to clarify something else, I'm not just 14 years out of school, either.  I did 6 years of research for the Army before I took my current position.)
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ssltech

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2007, 12:43:14 pm »

I too saw validity in mgod's point, although it's a little carelessly put, and I didn't particularly want to post in agreement because I thought it might overstate the point.

-Jimmy, it says a lot about your maturity that you see it the way you do. :cheers:

I'm self-taught in most things associated with my profession, but how often I wish that I had more formally learned the fundamentals... my abiding outlook is this:

A degree doesn't actually prove very much, but it does suggest quite a lot.

Good on yer.

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Fox

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2007, 12:49:48 pm »

Yeah, you're right, I'm just so tired of people pulling crap like that in a debate.

Guy1: "Well, actually everything you've just said is wrong."

Guy2: "Oh, ya? What makes your opinion so great? It's not like you're an expert or anything..."

Guy1: "Actually, I am." <provides credentials...>

Guy2: "Well, fine, you might "technically" be an expert, but that doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about."

How can you possibly have a meaningful debate of any kind with a person like this? Do you have to show up at their house, build a skyscraper while they watch just so that they'll attribute some sort of value to your opinion?

Ugh.. I knew I shouldn't have said anything.



EDIT: Yeah like Keith said above, I'm glad to see you that you handled the comment so well and admitted a certain degree of validity to it. It really reflects well.


Fox
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mgod

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2007, 02:27:40 pm »

Thank you Jimmy, I'm glad you saw the point I was making. As I said, it was not meant to be insulting, only to point out that its easy to throw around qualifications and credentials  - we're in an information saturated environment in which people do that all the time. I think it was Marvin Minsky @ MIT who defined "information" as a difference that makes a difference. In theory, stating a degree should qualify as that - but when we encounter so many "experts" who stake out opposing points-of-view, as we do daily, all of whom one-up each other with statements of qualifications, its playing ball on running water. I expected to get grief for that post, but hoped it wouldn't be from you. So thanks again.

What bothers me about the incessant debate everyone is having with Max about these buildings collapsing is that I think people are failing to see what's driving Max, and maybe I am too, but it seems to me that what Max is getting at, however struggling his expression is, is that he's suspicious of the information itself. I am too.

If I didn't have some trust in my brother as a credible person, and he didn't personally know someone he trusts who saw a passenger jet plow into the Pentagon, I'd be just as suspicious of that as I am un-suspicious. We're well beyond being able to trust the evidence of mediated eyes. We can only trust our own, and as Max has repeatedly pointed out, almost all the information being debated regarding the fall of the towers is coming through commercial pipelines, which in the end, are trying to sell us something.

Absent direct experience, its as easy to claim fact as it is to claim credentials. Perhaps Max is out of his depth when it comes to analyzing the images of the tower falling, perhaps not. I'm just a musician and don't know. But when I read this debate, I read people talking across each other about 2 different subjects. I heard for a long time that the floors fell at free-fall speed and that shouldn't be possible. Now it seems it is possible that they could have, but I couldn't find anything that told me for certain that they did - it was presented as fact, but I had no way of knowing if it was in fact, factual.

This is our dilemma - one thing we know for certain, is that much of the so-called information we receive about almost everything doesn't really qualify as information. The signal to noise ratio now is pitiful. And there are innumerable "experts" on payrolls.

DS
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mgod

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2007, 02:37:31 pm »

Fox wrote on Fri, 14 September 2007 09:49


How can you possibly have a meaningful debate of any kind with a person like this? Do you have to show up at their house, build a skyscraper while they watch just so that they'll attribute some sort of value to your opinion?

I hate to say it, but, yes.

I don't doubt Jimmy or very many people in this forum, but of course none of us have any idea if anyone else here is telling the truth about anything unless we know them. I could claim some great degrees, but it would be hard work for you guys to disprove the claims.

And as this happy-go-lucky administration has made so eminently clear, what qualifies someone to head an important governmental division has changed a lot too. No doubt Mr. Gonzales really had those law degrees (although I couldn't say for certain), but he didn't seem to know much about the function of the law. I wish there were some version of coming over and building a skyscraper we could have made him do.

DS
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Fox

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2007, 02:46:42 pm »

I think that I see what you're saying and I agree to a point. There's no experience like personal experience, and there is a lot of fraudulent information floating about.

We have to be able to trust somebody at some point though, otherwise incessant fact-checking would ensue and nothing would ever get done.

In hindsight I think that my previous posts are a little aggressive, so I apologize Dan.

I think that I was more frustrated with the wording than the message itself, but then again it didn't really concern me, so...

Sorry.


Fox
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mgod

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2007, 03:12:21 pm »

Thank you for that. I find myself wondering if the inability to know anything for certain that we don't experience directly doesn't presage a gradual return to local economy, local media, local government, local everything.

As to the debate here, we learn to trust in each other, but when things start to get insulting we lose that trust. It was Mr. Jazz who, as I saw it, threw the first punch at Max by suggesting he would make a lousy engineer.

As far as we know, that's true of all of us. As far as we know.

Have you ever found yourself wondering how different the attack in NYC could have turned out? How untrustworthy the national government proved itself to be in response? Even the first move, with global support, of going into Afghanistan, marked a betrayal by Rumsfeld of all the CIA people on the ground.

DS
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jimmyjazz

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2007, 03:35:13 pm »

Well, we are supposed to disclose names on some of these forums.  My profile includes mine.  Note that my last name is "Andrews" not "Jazz".   Very Happy

I live in Austin, so you can probably deduce what school awarded me my masters degree.  You can look up my thesis (or at least the abstract) online in their "virtual stacks".  You can find a half dozen patents in my name, too.  

I can pretty easily be vouched for.

So yes, it does perturb me that society has become so distrusting that credentials mean nothing.  We've seen this kind of crap go on far too long in our audio discussions, and we've all lamented the fact that guys like George M have fled for the virtual hills because they just don't have the time to constantly argue with petulant little wannabe-experts who won't bother to learn a bit about the person they're arguing with.
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maxdimario

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2007, 04:01:59 pm »

what kind of devices have you designed jimmYjazz?

I love the 9/11 date.. it's so mediatic isn't it?

911 emergency.. 11 resembling the twin towers when they were standing..

so much symbolism it almost sounds like it came out of an esoteric brainstorming session!


Jimmyjazz you are an engineer, so please explain WTC7.

and since you are an expert could you please describe the mechanics behind a controlled demolition in detail?

how many skyscrapers have you built?

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Tomas Danko

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2007, 04:13:25 pm »

Would that imply they're going to assault some place in Europe on the 12th of January, since 112 is the equivalent here?

Then again, we usually state dates the other way around, which could mean the 1st of December.

Boy have we them terrorists confused now!

I guess they haven't been able to attack Sweden earlier since we used 90 000 up until a couple of years ago...
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mgod

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2007, 04:24:01 pm »

jimmyjazz wrote on Fri, 14 September 2007 12:35

 they just don't have the time to constantly argue with petulant little wannabe-experts who won't bother to learn a bit about the person they're arguing with.


Oh man. Mr Andrews, that could be argued in so many different directions I don't want to touch it.

A piece on the veracity of the information we receive:

 http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/10/gore2007 10

DS
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jimmyjazz

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2007, 06:01:10 pm »

You don't remember George tiring of dealing with the "yeah, what do you know" crowd?
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jimmyjazz

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2007, 06:05:28 pm »

Why do you care?  Have you designed anything?  A skyscraper, even?

Most of my design work has been on high- and ultra-high power linear electric motors and rotary machines.  I've had to do a great deal of structural analysis on frames, particularly with regard to fault torque and seismic loads.  I've also designed industrial mufflers, turbine alternators, and several control rooms.  No skyscrapers, though.
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rankus

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Re: 9/11 Demolition Theory Challenged
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2007, 06:26:45 pm »



Max you are a troll ... You are pushing buttons just to get a reaction... give it up... please  we have been down this path too many times.

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