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Author Topic: Pay Cut  (Read 10923 times)

Keyplayer

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Pay Cut
« on: August 16, 2007, 11:16:19 AM »

I'm sure its universally agreed that, with the market being what it is these days, we are all making less for the same amount (or even more) work than even a couple of years ago (let alone 5 - 10).

A few months back I mentioned losing a $5.2K bid (which would easily have sounded like 5 times that amount!) on a jingle project and was told that some places were bidding half that for the, presumably, same level of work.

So this got me wondering about what your experiences were regarding this dismal trend. What are the budgets like in your market now? How much of it would you guess you get to keep? Yeah, I know its personal. So just "Ball Park" the estimates. But I'm sure a lot of us would like this information to get a REALITY CHECK on the state of things.
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Travis Engler

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2007, 04:33:31 PM »

You guys take home money?  I thought a studio was a big hole in the ground where you dump all your money.  Very Happy  Crying or Very Sad
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Keyplayer

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2007, 09:29:23 AM »

Wow, nobody's willing to discuss this? Confused
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Long View Farm

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2007, 12:28:41 PM »

I think people are hesitant to discuss the topic because it's hard to talk when you're on life support.

We've been out and about, talking with labels and the truth is when their profits go down they spend less.  Technology has made it easier to justify because there's more, inexpensive, yet decent gear available in the marketplace.  Listening habits have changed to support it's use thanks to the ipod and such devices. The sought after demographic that purchases (if we're lucky) the most music doesn't care about how the music sounds so why should the label?

I would like to think the trend will swing back in favor of the traditional studio experience, that baby-boomers who still love their rock & roll and still listen to music on their big, expensive home stereo systems will demand greater fidelity.  That's taking optimism to the extreme, isn't it?  While we're waiting for this to happen the bill collector is knocking on the door and we have to take our 30+ plus years of pro-audio expertise and figure out another way to generate income to pay the bills.  

Our daily rate is less today than it was 15 years ago.  We have great equipment that costs more and more to maintain every year. Energy costs more.  Labor costs more. Yet what we hear when we quote our rates is that we're too expensive. In our defense, I remind people that they are recording through hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of some of the finest gear ever made with a highly skilled and educated engineer who has worked on gold & platinum albums. Our INTERNS have better skills than some of the folks building their own "studios" and charging a fraction  of we do for supposedly similar results. All of our local and indie work is going to these guys. Can we blame them?  These guys dream about working at a place like Long View and yet they will surely put us out of business before they get a chance.

It's a conundrum.

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Keyplayer

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2007, 10:20:13 PM »

Well you are clearly not alone. Just about anybody else that I can get to discuss this is reporting huge losses of revenue in their respective fields and that includes Commercial Studio Owners, Project Studio Owners, Post Rooms, as well as Composer/Producers like myself. Just look at some of the comments posted here. http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewt...=120504#120504

If I take a gig as a session player, the pay is less because the budget was less. If I get a gig as a Composer, I've got to fight like hell to cover the cost of one or two live musicians, which I also have to pay less. You can "Stick to your guns" all you want on the price/quality ratio, but, as Neil Wilkes noted in his post on nuendo.com, customers are going with rock bottom, through the floor pricing with a quality be damned attitude!

As for "getting in there," I am and I feel squeezed from all sides. Just trying to get on the "Radar Screens" of most Post Rooms to look for potential clients has become a full time Herculean task. Everybody's gone high tech now, right? So it should be easier to reach my target markets. Instead it's become much harder. All of my e-mail notifications of my company's services are blocked by Spam Filters. So now I'm forced to use direct snail mail brochures, which costs a lot more. The return results for cold calling are always very low, so the investment is usually a loss.

Being light and nimble with low overhead is what is supposed to give you and edge over the bloated commercial studio, right? Theoretically you're offering the same quality at a much lower price point. But with everybody THINKING they can make their own records with Fruity Loops or Garage Band and then actually glorifying the crappy results as "Edgey" or "Punk", how exactly are you supposed to combat this trend? Almost all of the studio clients my friends are receiving now are people intelligent enough to know that its NOT that easy to make a quality recording. Unfortunately, they've now spent all the money on PTle and only have $175.00 left! Can we puhleeze save their project with a good mix of their 4 - 6 song EP (for $175.00????) and they swear they'll come back to you to do the next CD project correctly. Only they never seem to make it back, hmmm. What were the odds?

"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em," right? Music Libraries are paying a whopping $300.00 per ten track CD! You know damned good and well that you can't do a decent demo of one song for $300.00. But that's the take it or leave it budgets being offered. So now you feel like you're playing the lottery, hoping the account execs push your disk to the client so that MAYBE you can earn a couple of grand in licensing on the back end, which is 9 months to a year away. Even if that happens, the Music Library's Brand is what get's noticed, NOT your work. But you still have to "keep the lights on" while you wait for even that scenario to play out.

I'm just wondering what kind of strategies you guys are using to keep things profitable, not just solvent. With so many Giant studios going under (Sony Music JUST closed), solvency is not so easy to achieve any longer and if you can't push quality as a selling point what ARE you supposed to use?
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Ryan Wiley

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2007, 09:26:24 PM »

In my naive opinion, the problem is that the value of a well recorded and produced record has been lost. It used to be the case that in order to make it big, a great record was required. Now, in the minds of prospective clients, it has more to do with marketing and what other companies the artist's record label owns (providing that all important crossover saturation). There is no incentive for lower level (in business, not in quality) players to spend a lot of money for the real deal in quality. They would rather go with the guy down the street that can give them a "passing product" for half the cost and pitch it to the big guys as a demo, because they think that his how it works.

We need to be looking for a new market model that allows artists to compete and survive based on quality. We need to figure out how a band/manager can benefit from dropping 10K-40K on a real quality project and make his/her money back plus some. The production side needs to start getting involved with the artist-fan relationship in order to create a new business model that is capable of sustaining quality. Its not looking for a new way to sell ourselves to clients, but of helping them discover how to sell themselves better to fans and the rest of the world in a way that relies on our quality services.

What should the new industry model look like?
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rankus

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2007, 09:35:37 PM »

Ryan Wiley wrote on Sun, 19 August 2007 18:26



What should the new industry model look like?


I Tunes.

But I feel that once apple has reached saturation with the I pod they will HAVE to find a way to up-sell the next generation of players, and hopefully that will include a push towards higher fidelity:

"What, you still have that old lo-fi unit?  We have this new one with twice the sound quality... Upgrade now!"

This will hopefully flow down the chain all the way to the studios.... ?

I certainly hope it will go this way...  It's prolly the only hope

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Jessica A. Engle

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 04:55:19 PM »

Keyplayer wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 21:20

 You can "Stick to your guns" all you want on the price/quality ratio, but, as Neil Wilkes noted in his post on nuendo.com, customers are going with rock bottom, through the floor pricing with a quality be damned attitude!




Isn't this happening everywhere, tho'?  Sure, I used to love MacDonalds when I was a kid, but my parents carted us there because it was cheap, not because it was the height of cuisine or because it was good for us.  

I also used to think Wal-Mart was really great.  So convenient, everything in one stop, and cheap!  Who cares if the quality of the product or the service is crummy?  

Now that I'm older (and maybe wiser) I feel differently about these things.  Eventually the quality became more important than the instant gratification to me.  But does this happen as a function of age.... or something else?

What I mean is, once iPod junkies have their mp3s for a while, will they eventually hunger for something more nutritious, as Rankus suggests... or will they still continue to consume auditory "fast food" and be happy with that?  

My guess is, they will do whatever the big marketing dollars tell them to.  If it's higher fidelity, then so it is.  But if it's something easier to sell, like purty colors or an integrated cell phone, then it will be that.  That's pretty sad.

Jessica

PS: I am still a student, so I can't comment on "pay cuts"... but it is definitely something that concerns me greatly.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 05:13:28 PM »

Jessica A. Engle wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 13:55


PS: I am still a student, so I can't comment on "pay cuts"... but it is definitely something that concerns me greatly.


One area that is growing is education.  There are many more schools teaching recording and music technology, colleges as well as private music and recording schools.  It isn't a huge sector, but it is an important one and will likely continue to be as more people try to do it themselves and want to learn how to do things right.

el duderino

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2007, 01:02:10 PM »

Jay Kadis wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 17:13

Jessica A. Engle wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 13:55


PS: I am still a student, so I can't comment on "pay cuts"... but it is definitely something that concerns me greatly.


One area that is growing is education.  There are many more schools teaching recording and music technology, colleges as well as private music and recording schools.  It isn't a huge sector, but it is an important one and will likely continue to be as more people try to do it themselves and want to learn how to do things right.



part of me thinks this is adding to the problem. everyone thinks they go to school, finish  it and go to a studio where they make money (ha!) and learn a few tricks, and then the grammy's start rolling in.

yet most people dont even finish the coarse and if they do they usually end up changing careers.

from what i've seen, the schools love it. they hire grads before they've left the building to be supervisors of the "studios" so you end up with people who have no experience instructing students.

i dont care if someone knows the signal flow of an SSL like the back of their hand. if they cant make a good recording in the room they are in with the gear available it doesnt matter once you leave the building.

but teaching at one is a steady paycheck and we all gotta do what we gotta do...

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Jay Kadis

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 01:49:46 PM »

Actually, relatively few of our students go to work in a studio.  Many work in sound and composition for video/film, game sound, and DSP programming for audio hardware and software companies.  While I do love recording and mixing, there's a lot more to audio than recording rock bands.

Our particular program combines many aspects of music technology, from recording to DSP to acoustics to human-computer interface design.  While the demand for recording engineers is diminishing, in part due to the number of musicians recording their own work, opportunities in other areas are growing.

Certainly the paradigm has shifted in the recording business and to be successful in the future one should have a broad and flexible background in a lot of technological areas that relate to the audio and music fields.

I don't see why teaching composers and performers to record themselves is a bad thing.  Many of them lack the money to go the full studio route, while they can produce decent recordings with simple computer systems tailored specifically to their needs.  The symphony still records at Skywalker.

Ryan Wiley

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2007, 01:15:45 PM »

I think that the direction of the discussion has brought forth a really important point. The industry is developing many different outlets for creative work in all areas of media. This development has come as a result of the ever growing and changing media industry.  There are opportunities for artists to make money from video games soundtracks, web video production, and the like. Getting your music to the public is easier as well. I don't need a record label's massive distribution deal to get my music to someone on the other side of the world. Indie labels have a better chance of reaching their target audiences. Can we really just say that the industry is down and production side players are taking a pay cut due to consumers not wanting quality or the watered down market of engineers from recording schools? There is money out there being passed around, and we need to be tied into it. Forget getting paid by labels. Alot of engineers are taking a percentage cut from the bands and their management.

We need some reason in audio to determine how bands, managers, and the indies can grow and compete with the big record labels. When money becomes more available to them, they will compete for it. Competition at that level requires that recordings and songs stand out from the rest of the world. When the smaller players can make some money, they will be willing to pay for the better service, because thats how they will gain an edge over the competition. Quality is not keeping this from happening. It is something in the market itself, something about how the market model is arranged.

Lets look at the current model from the perspective of several different groups. I know these aren't well organized, but here goes nothing.

The Big Label way
Record label signs band, records record with a good budget paying out only what they know they need to in order get the product they need, spends lots of cash marketing it and getting it into stores and on the radio.  They sell the cd for 10-18 bucks in stores and for about 10 bucks on iTunes. The keep a big chunk of publishing, a good size cut of sales. The marketing people make money, the distributer makes money. The band... not quite so much. The marketing is necessary in order to get people to drop cash for a cd (or a download). Just like any other product, you have to convince someone to spend their hard earned money on you product. Obviously the more you spend to blanket the market, the more return you potentially will get. They can blanket, so they do. The consequences of this model is pretty much what true fans of music have been complaining about for years: homogonized music, kids buy what they are told, sqeezing the little guy out, artists used and abused and not always really rewarded for their efforts. They sign these contracts because they want to survive the climate of the current industry. Its that or work at starbucks. Can't blame them. Everyone is making money except the artist. The producers/engineers are paid ok, but not as much as they might in a more expansively competitive market. After taking over a bulk of the marketing and distribution space, the labels are looking at the most cost effective way to produce a product that they know they can sell.  They determine what kids get so they get to set the prices in the market.  

The indie label/band method - i will refer to them as band because most indie labels have about the same resources and connections as many bands could if they really worked at.
Band saves up money, records record, and tours to sell it.  Live shows are their marketing along with maybe local media. Everytime they play a bar or club, they ask consumers to drop 10 bucks on a cd. The consumer has already paid a 5-10 dollar cover and wants to have a couple of drinks. Even if the show is tight and rockin, the band still has a hard time selling the cd. Everyone with a spare room and a guitar center credit card is recording half ass records. Why would a patron drop 10 bucks on a cd they don't know will even be that great? They know that they could buy a few more drinks with the money (a sure fire purchase... they know what they will get).  Band gets very little money and must work at starbucks. They never have money to record better stuff and no one ever hears their record. People rarely become fans of bands when they don't own the cd. There is no incentive to write better songs or pay someone to record a better sounding record, because they will not be sustainable as artists even if they do spend the time doing that.  Its not like talent alone will get them rich.  

Whatever solution we come up with should address the problem with some considerations. We want to encourage artists to become better artists. We want quality to increase. We also want the solution to be viable in the market place. When I talk to lay people about our industry, i usually describe it in the same terms as above. It always confused me as I talked about it as to what was limiting these smaller bands and indie labels. Then it hit me. They don't have fans. They need fans to sustain an income. They won't get fans if no one owns their cd. No one will own their cd if they are trying to sell it for 10 bucks at a bar.

I was one the road doing production work with a regional indie band back a couple of years ago. We probably played in front of  over 15,000 different people over six months when you added up the bar gigs, the college gigs, etc. We spent alot of money on transportation and lodging and at the end of the day sold less then 1000 cds. The recording was done at a high end studio, engineered by myself, and co produced by two very experienced men regarded by many at a national level as top notch(one had alot of gold records, several platinum records, and a grammy or two under his belt). The songs were good and the recording performances were very tight. None of that mattered because no one bought a record. I believe that if they had heard the record, those that were into the genre would have listened to it over and over. Most really couldn't get a good idea of alot of the lyrical content because the venue's were generally loud, run down, with amazing(ly bad) sound systems. It all came down to not being able to sell enough cd's to get fans which would in turn provide more income oppotunities.

Hell... if we had just wanted to get fans, we would have been better off to give the music away. At least then they would have listened to the record that we spent over two months on, like it, and we might get fans. And fans would provide more income opportunities (like royalties, merch, and ticket sales. That would give us a better chance to survive. Then we would have more money to spend on good production for the next record just like we did the first time. Give the music away... what do you all think. Ill be back later to explain how i think this could work in the real world.
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rnicklaus

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2007, 03:52:22 PM »

I thought this was an interesting quote from Gene Simmons on Blabbermouth.net about the record business being dead.

I'm sure the Gene Simmons haters will miss the point, but an interesting point to me.


<<Gene Simmons: Yeah, but whoever invented the idea that a record company should support a band? What lunatic ever expects that? Imagine being in a business where you have to pay money, an advance, cash, to a band. Record companies were the best friend you and I ever had. They give you a big advance, you never have to pay the money back. If it loses and it bombs, you never pay the money back. They'll earn back their money, then they continue to pay you royalties. That's the best friend you ever had. Then they have to go manufacture it, promote it, advertise it, PLUS they want to get you out on tour and they'll pay you to go out on tour. They don't participate in your licensing, your merchandising or your live ticket sales …>>
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Keyplayer

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2007, 11:53:13 AM »

Ryan Wiley wrote on Thu, 30 August 2007 13:15

 

Hell... if we had just wanted to get fans, we would have been better off to give the music away. At least then they would have listened to the record that we spent over two months on, like it, and we might get fans. And fans would provide more income opportunities (like royalties, merch, and ticket sales. That would give us a better chance to survive. Then we would have more money to spend on good production for the next record just like we did the first time. Give the music away... what do you all think. Ill be back later to explain how i think this could work in the real world.    



Keyplayer: Giving the music away as a sample to get listeners is a tried and true method. The way it was done was RADIO. People listened for free as part of their daily routine and, if they really liked it, would go to record stores to purchase the record/cassette/CD/etc. Clear Channel squashed all of that. So Satellite Radio was SUPPOSED to pick up that slack and open the airwaves to the independent artist. But we are now a couple of years into this medium and its "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss!" Have you tried even finding a Satellite Programming Director? Its like looking for a Unicorn!

So now what? Give away free downloads and hope the market will want the better fidelity of the full bandwidth on the CD? Any demographic that accepts mp3 downloads as their primary source of listening entertainment has clearly proven that they are quite content with the crappy sound. So what is supposed to motivate them to buy the better sounding CD?

But even if this approach would work.Where, exactly are you supposed to give these downloads away? MySpace? How do you drive the traffic to MySpace? How do people find you on MySpace without knowing that they're looking for you in the first place? With hundred's of thousands of wannbe music stars vying for your attention, it's like looking for a specific snowflake in a blizzard!

Every single website I ever opened or joined was some kind of attempt to drive a market to my original website that promotes my products and services. Results? I'm working 3 times as hard maintaining 3 sites, none of which are producing any sales.

So now, the only way to get heard is traditional advertising, which requires megabucks for print/radio/tv and even websites if you expect to actually be seen! Free placement on Google places you on page 2016! You want page one, you're paying .08 - .10 a click!

Case in point. I've spent a lot of time and effort putting together an electronic B to B presentation to send to ad agencies to promote the jingle composition/production side of my business. It's a very short one page brief that directs them to my website IF they want to consider hiring me. It's free and convenient for all parties. Results? ZIP!!!! Why? because the emails all come back blocked as spam.

So now I have to spend roughly a $1.25 for every brochure I send out via snail mail just to let them know that I'm here and these brochures that are almost guaranteed to go immediately in the receptionist's wastebasket before ANYONE with any pull even gets to see it! The odds of actually getting a job this way are absurdly low at best and best would be described as mailing to the same people over and over again (say twice a month to stay on their minds without becoming obnoxious). So all of that money is going out with virtually no assurance of any coming back. How can you maintain that kind of strategy?

So how, exactly, do you propose for an artist to give away any samples in order to sell ANY product? I don't want my frustration to be misinterpreted as hostility towards you. I really would be very interested in how one might actually facilitate this very strategy. Because, so far, I've had absolutely no success with even attempting this approach!
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Jay Kadis

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Re: Pay Cut
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2007, 12:14:10 PM »

I have to agree with Keyplayer.  Out of 900-odd hits a recent CD Baby album page, we've sold 2 CDs.  Interestingly enough each buyer left a 5-star review so at least they don't think it sucks.  There is a disconnect between surfing and buying.

CD Baby is a wonderful form of distribution, but the promotion side has gone nowhere.  We have some play on local college radio and an internet radio/blog but no one is buying.  Admittedly this is a niche release (it would have been mainstream 25 years ago when it was recorded) but I find most people I know using CD Baby have had the same result.

If there is a way of promoting releases that actually results in any form of income I'd like to hear about it.
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