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Author Topic: Pre prod time / money to pay for it?  (Read 7826 times)

John Ivan

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Re: Pre prod time / money to pay for it?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2004, 10:34:32 pm »

Hi all;

I sometimes have young bands that come in with good tunes and they end up being nervous. More than one time, I have had them come to the studio with the idea that we will be doing pre-production/arranging .I of course will record every note they play. I will get sounds up and let the Tape roll and go back into the room with them and they think they are playing through the tune to rehearse it and it will often be the final track. On thicker R&B stuff,I like to do pre production because of all the synth stuff and vocal arrangements but, this is only when I'm producing.If I'm not, they pay the full rate to get all that happening. If they are not ready with this stuff,it's on them. I find that with rock and roll where the band is trying to get a tune down all together, the first takes are usually the best ones..

Ivan.......
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Ross Hogarth

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Re: Pre prod time / money to pay for it?
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2004, 01:47:47 am »

Its great to see the discourse and how everybody has their own little twist on it.
I guess what it comes down to is seeing the job before doing the job.
If I could boil it down. One must have a plan before implementing it.
All situations being slightly different and unique to themselves , we must be pliant and malleable enough in our ways to be able to see each situation for itself and then choose a course of action. Not every band needs a lot of work and then not very band is going to walk in cold and nail it on a first take. The varying techniques and tools become the keys to unlocking great music and great performances on hopefully good/great songs.

I believe it is important to

See the Job
Do the Job
Stay out of the Misery ....
this is one of my favorite sayings .....

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Fibes

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Re: Pre prod time / money to pay for it?
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2004, 09:16:59 am »

Ross Hogarth wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 01:47

Its

I believe it is important to

See the Job
Do the Job
Stay out of the Misery ....
this is one of my favorite sayings .....




So true, I have another issue that popped into my head last night in regards to pre-pro. Pre album touring. You old folks remeber it well, ya know when bands used to work out their songs all over the country in front of different crowds and by the end of the tour they knew what worked. It was in an era when DJs laugheed at formats and the 6 minute song was not uncommon. The fact is the 6 minute song of yesteryear was worked over the coals for as long as it took in front of  real audiences.

Snap back to today, pre-pro is used to shoehorn unrehearsed talent and material into a formula. So in a nutshell give me the old fashioned grind method anytime.
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Fibes
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j.hall

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Re: Pre prod time / money to pay for it?
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2004, 10:31:07 am »

when i'm in charge of "producing" or "recording" or both i do the same pre-pro every time.

"send me a CD, or cassette, of all the songs we are going to record.  i couldn't care less what it sounds like as long as i can hear the rough outline of the song."

i don't have time, nor budget, to sit around in practice spaces listening to songs at 110dB adding my relatively nieve comments every other take.

i typically have littel time between projects to stop and think, and i often times crunch mix sessions all around tracking sessions.

if i can drive around town with a CD playing, and get to the point where i stop listening and start hearing, i'm much more effective when communicating with the band.

one caveat to all that.......i work in the indie rock community, it is not acceptable to change a bands song structure, in any way, shape, or form with out prior conversations and agreement.  doing this on the fly will CRUSH any hope you might have in gaining trust, and working with the band again.

i'm there to motivate, get performances, suggest overdubs, get in their heads and force them think of the song from all angles.  i'm not there to tell them how to write, or what to play.  i ask for CD's so i can start forming my thoughts on each song and i can know the arrangement in advance.  keeps me from jumping around in the quiet part and standing still in the loud part.

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Fibes

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Re: Pre prod time / money to pay for it?
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2004, 10:48:18 am »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 10:31

when i'm in charge of "producing" or "recording" or both i do the same pre-pro every time.

"send me a CD, or cassette, of all the songs we are going to record.  i couldn't care less what it sounds like as long as i can hear the rough outline of the song."
i typically have littel time between projects to stop and think, and i often times crunch mix sessions all around tracking sessions.

if i can drive around town with a CD playing, and get to the point where i stop listening and start hearing, i'm much more effective when communicating with the band.

one caveat to all that.......i work in the indie rock community, it is not acceptable to change a bands song structure, in any way, shape, or form with out prior conversations and agreement.  doing this on the fly will CRUSH any hope you might have in gaining trust, and working with the band again.




Yeah the boom box in the car method is another way to get familiar too. Yes, fucking with peoples music is only at their suggestion. All too often the arrangements are bloated and intro heavy.
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Fibes
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"You can like it, or not like it."
The Studio

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John Ivan

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Re: Pre prod time / money to pay for it?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2004, 02:29:13 am »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 09:31

when i'm in charge of "producing" or "recording" or both i do the same pre-pro every time.

"send me a CD, or cassette, of all the songs we are going to record.  i couldn't care less what it sounds like as long as i can hear the rough outline of the song."

i don't have time, nor budget, to sit around in practice spaces listening to songs at 110dB adding my relatively nieve comments every other take.

i typically have littel time between projects to stop and think, and i often times crunch mix sessions all around tracking sessions.

if i can drive around town with a CD playing, and get to the point where i stop listening and start hearing, i'm much more effective when communicating with the band.

one caveat to all that.......i work in the indie rock community, it is not acceptable to change a bands song structure, in any way, shape, or form with out prior conversations and agreement.  doing this on the fly will CRUSH any hope you might have in gaining trust, and working with the band again.

i'm there to motivate, get performances, suggest overdubs, get in their heads and force them think of the song from all angles.  i'm not there to tell them how to write, or what to play.  i ask for CD's so i can start forming my thoughts on each song and i can know the arrangement in advance.  keeps me from jumping around in the quiet part and standing still in the loud part.




In a way, this is a cool way to work.I do some rock bands that really don't want me messin' with the tune/arrangement and they are very much set in they're ways. I'm there to ,as you say ,motivate, come up with back-up vox,counter guitar lines and shape the tones. Other times I really co-write and only get credit for producing. How I get paid and/or credited for some of my input on this stuff is another thing I need to come to terms with when the new room opens. It can sometimes leave me confused.
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Fletcher

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Re: Pre prod time / money to pay for it?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2004, 06:47:44 am »

I always do 8-track demos of anything I'm "producing".  We'll do a bunch of rehearsal space time, go into a relatively inexpensive studio with a 24 trk deck or I'll bring my RADAR... then break it down into 8 track groups and blow down all the songs we've worked on.

If I run into a song where there are timeing issues, I can then take the drums from the 8 track and build loops the band can play to while tracking... or build a complementary percussion part the band can groove with while tracking [two different things that are there for similar purposes]... I can also experiment with some overdub ideas [quickly, nothing to stress over] to get a handle on what I want to do with each song.

By being prepared, I don't have to worry nearly as much about surprises when we get in to do the actual production... but by not over focusing, some wonderful magic isn't "pre-produced" out of the product.

Other than building loops and stuff like that, the 8 track demos never go anywhere but in my car... we NEVER play the demos in the CR with an eye 'can you do something more like you did on the demo'.

I also like to keep the quality of the demos at a reasonable level in case I have to lift something from them [usually when the band isn't there], or if the loops will actually be part of the finished production.... hey, ya never know... right?
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
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Rob Darling

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Re: Pre prod time / money to pay for it?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2004, 07:03:07 am »

Familiarity and comfort are everything, whether it is with people, processes, pieces of work- whatever.  In as big a process as making a record, you have to find where everone's comforts/discomforts are, and pre-production is the place to explore this.  What is the musician like as person, what is their time flow, when do they get cranky, hungry, burned out, excited, creative, motivated- you have to know everyone's limits and optimizations.  

I like to have a good amount of time available and not use it all.  It makes people feel like stuff got done and they are starting out ahead of the curve.  

I like to start by not working on new songs or even on the artist's own songs- there's a reason doctors don't operate on their own family.  If you're going to explore, don't do it on your babies.

It is only supposed to be fun- setting the tone that this beats the hell out of having a real job is absolutely key.

Just a few observations.

r.

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