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Author Topic: Bounce To Disk  (Read 4054 times)

Ross Hogarth

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Bounce To Disk
« on: April 28, 2004, 08:47:15 pm »

This definitely comes under the heading of whatever works ...or not ...

I am wondering what everyone's experience is with this. When you are mixing and believe your balance is rocking and you have your shit together , you bounce to disk to create your stereo 16 or 24 bit 44.1 file to burn a cd.
Do you find that your mix changes?
Do you find that your stereo image collapses ?
Do you find any difference's ?
Have you not really thought about it and now you need to go check it out so you come back and tell me I'm nuts for hearing the shit I do .....
Have you ever done a test ?
I am curious as to the results and the possible solutions / techniques ..

have at it ..........
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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2004, 09:32:26 pm »

    Embarassed Well it's true bouncing to disk sucks...  Here are some ways it sucks less.  First of all, if your using an ultramaximizer on your mix bus.  Take it easy.  This to me is the thing that really mucks a mix.  Try easing off on it, back your whole mix of and and don't let your maximizer push more than -3 on the right real time scale more than a few times in your mix.  The minuite this thing works harder than that. ;javascript: insertTag(document.post_form.msg_body, '', ' Shocked '); EWwwww!!! Use it more as limiter that a sound enhancer.  Try keeping your mix bus at 0db, and set your Ultramximizer betwen -1.2 and -1.8 threshold.  This will give you the closest rep of what your trying to do.  And ofcourse always process your bit conversion after the fact and not during.  That means keeping your Ultramaximizers at the highest working bit rate.   Rolling Eyes http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/images/message_icons/icon4. gif
If your using a bounce to disk with an external word clock... Good luck.    Word clocks sound better when your mixing because there working on playback and this helps a multi out situation.  On most systems word clocks are sort of bypassed when the information is written to disk.  I would suggest Buying an old 1" and hooking it  up to your mix outputs.  
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odysseys

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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2004, 03:11:53 am »

I guess that a test you can do (if your mix is automated) is to import the file back into the session,adjust the start and reverse its phase.You should hear silence should you?
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Dan-O

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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2004, 06:35:35 am »

Fucking cyber space ate my original post...

Anyway to paraphrase:

I always feel a sence of placebo effect when this issue arises. I'm aware I'm alone here, but the desire for the software mix buss to deliver inferior results seems to have self fulling properties. Different results...maybe, that's maybe, but not inferoir. (I feel the flames already)

There was a paragraph regarding software coding an math nut it amounted to asking Nika to explain something. Moving right along...


FWIW I avoid anything that has limiting effects on the mix buss. That's ME land. Sometimes a compressor depending...sometimes a spatialiser depending...sometimes both depending. I do feel however that the biggest impact on imaging happens when a compressor is placed across it. An it's not a positive impact either. (Remember were talking software buss here.) Gental massage required. 0db =/- 3-4db a must IMO as well.

Please chose the softest rock to throw as I might just throw them back.

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Dan-O
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Fibes

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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2004, 09:54:39 am »

Hmmm?  I stopped doing bounce to disk in lieu of real time internal bounces and now I'm experimenting with getting out of the box again. If I was working in a room with a great board there wouldn't be a question in mind about how to mix. The things i find odd is that I've sent ITB stuff off to get mastered and (usually non-invasive)the ME said he spread the guitars out a bit. They were already at full tilt. HMMMM?
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Fibes
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Dan-O

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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2004, 10:03:50 am »

Fibes wrote on Thu, 29 April 2004 09:54

Hmmm?  I stopped doing bounce to disk in lieu of real time internal bounces


Are you referring to "virtual cable"? (I think that's the name) I have it, but have yet to compare it.
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Dan-O
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Dan-O

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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2004, 10:24:40 am »

Fibes wrote on Thu, 29 April 2004 09:54

The things i find odd is that I've sent ITB stuff off to get mastered and (usually non-invasive)the ME said he spread the guitars out a bit. They were already at full tilt. HMMMM?


My apologies one more thing. I find, as I mentioned in my post, that when I put an compressor (software) across the mix buss (software)I almost always need to spread the image out. The stereo width is always compromised.
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Dan-O
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Fibes

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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2004, 10:44:09 am »

Dan-O wrote on Thu, 29 April 2004 10:03

Fibes wrote on Thu, 29 April 2004 09:54

Hmmm?  I stopped doing bounce to disk in lieu of real time internal bounces


Are you referring to "virtual cable"? (I think that's the name) I have it, but have yet to compare it.



I use Digital Performer and I use an aux bussed to a stereo track internally. Lately i've been doing stems and also pulling out the drums and using analog stuff there. I've found that plugs have latency that can start to smear things slightly. I just wish i had a better board to mix on in my room. It's main purpose is as a headphone mixer and talk back, that's the only audio that it touches. Elsewhere it's a totally different story.

What is this virtual cable?
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Fibes
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Dan-O

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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2004, 11:14:24 am »

Fibes wrote on Thu, 29 April 2004 10:44

Dan-O wrote on Thu, 29 April 2004 10:03

Fibes wrote on Thu, 29 April 2004 09:54

Hmmm?  I stopped doing bounce to disk in lieu of real time internal bounces


Are you referring to "virtual cable"? (I think that's the name) I have it, but have yet to compare it.



I use Digital Performer and I use an aux bussed to a stereo track internally. Lately i've been doing stems and also pulling out the drums and using analog stuff there. I've found that plugs have latency that can start to smear things slightly. I just wish i had a better board to mix on in my room. It's main purpose is as a headphone mixer and talk back, that's the only audio that it touches. Elsewhere it's a totally different story.

What is this virtual cable?



From the web site:

Virtual Audio Cable is a Windows multimedia driver allowing you to transfer audio (wave) streams from one application to another. It creates a pair of Wave In/Out devices for each cable. Any application can send audio stream to Out device, and any other application can receive this stream from In device. All transfers are made digitally, providing NO sound quality loss.
http://spider.nrcde.ru/music/software/eng/vac.html

For instance you could render in real time from Digital Performer straight into an editor.

As work in a delay compensated environment(SX)it's possible I don't have the same issues as you regarding plugs. I run from a PCI-424 setup with HD192. The cuemix feature allows me latency free monitoring of outboard (and I use plenty), as well as, talk back functionality. My board (O1V) is a controller only these days. I'll be upgrading my control surface very soon.
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Dan-O
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Fibes

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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2004, 12:12:23 pm »

The latency in DP is the same as most programs, if not better, it's just a few samples but that can add up.

ADC is the only way to go in the future. If that digi shit pulls it off, i'm prolly there...
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Fibes
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Michael Greene

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Re: Bounce To Disk
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2004, 06:24:46 pm »

First in my experiences were that DP's bounce to disk SUCKS,  I had to make some quick bounces to import into Pro Tools after I had a DP-Pro Tools HD hardware conflict.  (Another unresolved long suffered story!!!)  When I did that and listened to them I had to ask where did my depth and width go?  Oh it left the building faster that Elvis.  I have done many small budget albums in DP using outboard effects where the only way to print in the system is thru busses.  It sounds pretty good.  I tried this same experience in Pro Tools and found a difference in the BTD mix and the mix played back live.  The width and depth again went away.  Not to the extent that the DP BTD did but still some.  I then did a test using PT bussing to a new stereo track and It sounded almost exactly like the live mix.  My biggest problem was that I rarely had two open tracks on my Mix system so I would be forced to BTD and live with it.  Now with my HD rig I have (Usually)  more than enough tracks to go thru busses and not BTD but I have not duplicated this test.  I will try and do this this next week.  As far as the HD goes I finished a mix in the morning and printed it and sent it off for mastering.  My sales guy called and said my system was in so I went down and picked it up and installed it.  First of all I have to say I was amazed that everything from the upgrade to 10.3.2 to the HD upgrade went flawlessly.  ( I never have that kind of luck)  I then opened up the mix I had finished that morning and freaked out.  It sounded totally different that it did and all in a good way.  After listening for about and hour and making sure that nothing was messed up I bounced another mix and sent it off to be mastered and asked him to compare without telling him what the difference was.  He picked the HD mix hands down and asked what I had done to make it wider and deeper.  I then opened up a bunch of other tunes that I had finished that week before and had major differences in them compared to the bounced mixes.  Now for the real kicker for me.  I thought well it was just a difference in converters, then I realized that I was going digital into my d8b with both systems out the AES ports and wasn't using any converters except the ones in the console.  When I questioned my friend who works for Digidesign he just laughed and said it was the architecture of the mixer in PT and HD.  I don't understand the math and I don't care I just know what I hear and it sounds better.  
Sorry for the long rant but my point is try every available option and you will probably find that the one that is the easiest really sucks.

Good luck and happy listening,
Michael Greene
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