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[brandondrury]

Hello boys,

When I bought my pair of Delta 1010 soundcards they came bundled with Sonic Foundry's Vegas Pro.  Somewhere in there I needed to do a short little video project, so I bought Vegas Video 3, which was essentially the same thing.  I've been using it for audio recording ever since and I'm quite comfortable using it.

While trying to weed out the weak links in my recording chain, I've began to question the quality of my recording software.  I wonder if the mixing algorithms are up to the pro level that I've worked hard to obtain.

Is there a good way to test the quality of my mixing software to find out if it's up to the bill or if the problem is just me?  

I'm also very much concerned with phase issues that stem from the mixing process on a PC.  I first noticed the problem when I accidently set a snare drum to 2 aux sends simultaneously.  There was an obvious drop out in the low end.  I'm pretty sure that aux 1 had a compressor and the other was blank (straight to the master bus).  THIS REALLY CONCERNS ME!

I've found one good use for this phase maniupulation occurance.  I've been tossing a Waves Trueverb on the entire drum bus.  It then yank both the early reflections and reverb down do nearly nothing.  (Essentially on bypass without turning off the plugin).  By engaging this plugin, tons of the 400 Hz junk usually found in my drums (mainly because of the shitty room I have) is sucked out.  It works quite well for the modern rock drums which seam to have very little low mid (according to my confused ears).  

At this point in time, I must use a PC because of the bang for the buck trap.  I've wondered if switching to a higher quality program would be wise.  I've considered purchasing a Pro Tools rig that is slightly outdated now.  I would have to learn many things all over again, but I'm willing to do it my mixes will improve in the long run.  Of course, the Pro Tools rig would need to run on XP and I'm not too sure about that end of things.  

I guess, I'm trying to figure out the best way to avoid phase crap in my mixes caused by the computer.  Maybe it's not Vegas, maybe it's my plugins.  I've wondered about the DSP cards such as the Macke UAD-1 card and if they would improve the situation any.  

I'm pretty sure that switching to analog mixing would take care of the problem, but that would cause other issues.  The biggest issue being the way that I mix.  I bring in a band and we mix.  I save the work and burn the members a copy.  They take it home and find all the flaws.  They come back in the next week and I fix all the bugs and then we are done.  This just would not be possible in a conventional analog environment.  

What's the best solution?

Brandon

[Erik]

Democracy in action!

I've tossed this hot-button-laden post to the judges.  

Please vote in the poll!

--Erik

[Knastratt]

Cubase SX and a UAD-1 will help a lot. Skipping M-Audio soundcards will improve too. Getting a decent mic pre and a good mic setup will simplify life even more. New mobo/processor woudn't hurt either.

It all comes down to a mix of cold, hard cash and skill (which comes from trying and listening). That mix is deadly.

[floodstage]

Just learned to use a new feature of the updated bbs:

Ignore all messages by this user.

I think this will be a good thing.

Three guesses to which user I used to see how this function works.
(Hint : rumor had it he was banned from the forum even before it went on line - (unfortunately, not a true rumor, but...)

[pipelineaudio]

Vegas is GREAT! Vegas 5 is even better. If you are doing lots of midi intensive work, a sequencer would be better, something like logic or cubase or nuendo. For straight FAST editing, digital razorblade style vegas is very had to beat.

If you can name something specifically that vegas is lacking that also is essential to your workflow, then by all means switch, but otherwise, its the devil you know...

There ARE some issues in vegas that can be a big problem for certain types of workflow, but none of them are the problem you are describing.

Noone with a straight face who is in any position to know will tell you that PT summs better than vegas. In fact grab Lynn Fustons DAWsumm sampler and see for yourself.

Think about the issue you are describing for a bit more and you will see why its thinned out.

Hang around the vegas forum at SF, and you will have everything sorted out, or catch me on MSN messenger, we Vegans gotta hang together

[brandondrury]

From a workflow standpoint, I can think of nothing wrong with Vegas. Truely, I love it.  I purchased Cubase VST for midi stuff a few years ago and I hate using it.  To me, it's a giant pain in the ass compared to Vegas.

Maybe it's a problem with all computer based mixing, but I have the feeling that there are all kinds of phase problems bouncing around my entire mixes.  Obviously, I have phase issues when micing drums sometimes, but I'm aware of that and shoving the mics around can usually get rid of the problem.  

However, if sending a signal to an aux is going to cause phasing, what will happen if I have 10 different tracks all being sent to one aux or another?  It seams like sonic choas could erupt.  Assuming this is biggest problem in the recording chain (more than likely its me, at this point) I'm not sure what the cure is.  Obviously not using any effects would probably help.  I'm not sure how I would go without compression, ocassional eq, and a few very subtle reverb plugins.  I'll do a little research and maybe all of these can be solved.

Brandon

[John Ivan]

Hey Brand--- It's Ivan Again

I listened to the tunes you posted in another post and I've got some stuff to tell ya.First of all,it sounds like you are frustrated right now and your being hard on yourself.{this can be a good thing}. But, don't think your an ass hole hack just because you haven't recorded the latest yes album yet. I've heard you talk yourself down twice now and you need to cut that shit out..You were posting earlier about converters and pre's and you sound like your at a point where you hit a wall with this stuff. The thing that hit me right away when I heard your tunes was the sound of the room. You really need to do something about the reflections in that room. One idea could be the "live-end"-"dead end" thing where you make one end of the room quite dead and leave the other end of the room more open. I would recommend building absorption panels that you can take with you when you leave. You mentioned that you had read some books on acoustics and that it might be over your head. Well go read them some more and when you don't understand something, go ask some one and then read it 10 more times.The concepts will start to sink in.. It can be frustrating recording low end rock bands because you never get to hear how the instruments are supposed to sound to begin with. It might be time to be-friend the guys at the local pro studio or even the other local home project studios that have more experience than you. I learn more from other people than I do any where else. Get around good engineers and watch them work. You need more mics but, what you have is fine for now. I just can't stress the following point enough. The problems you are hearing in your work are NOT related to the gear you have. The up side to this whole thing is that you are hearing problems! This means you have a shot at getting better at this. Again, when no one else is around {or maybe with a friend who is trying to learn also},work on your room and work on mic technique. Get the basics really nailed down. Then when you buy a new converter or upgrade your console, you will really understand the tools better and hear a bigger difference. As Fletcher has pointed out before, This gets worse before it gets better and recording is something you will never stop learning. I hear my stuff and think most of it sucks too,and it's not like it just gets better and better either! it goes back and forth between me thinking that I might not Totally suck,hey ,not bad, And GRETCHEN,BRING MY GUN!! dive into the basics man. that stuff will never change and it is what all great recordings are all about.

Also,do what you can to get great players into your room to see what the music is supposed to sound like.

For the record. I don't like mixing in the box. Do everything you can to send all the channels to a mixer,and buy out board stuff.

[brandondrury]

I appreciate the help, dude.

When I jump into something, I expect to completely kick everyone's ass at it.  It takes patience to sit around a do shitty work over and over until I learn enough to make a decent recording.  I want to make a kick ass sounding record now!!

In my current location, there is no one to learn from. My studio has been overloaded with work for a while now and shows no sign of letting up because there just aren't that many options.  When people compare work, they go to me.  This is good, but not good enough for me.  

I did some volunteer work at the bigger studio in town (nice facility, 10 year old Soundcraft board, 16 bit ADAT's, nice mic collection) that charges $65 an hour and I wasn't impressed.  I spent a month their and learned that I just need to learn on my own.  Granted, if the dude would have blown me away with ability, I would have gladly hung out with him as long as possible.  

The problems I had with the acoustic refernce books, wasn't so much the technical jargon.  I'm completely lacking in the artistic side of things and generally make up for it with contraptions that use thousands of wires.  Anyway, I understood it, more or less.  The problem was that for many applications, solving one problem caused another.  

I read recently that one acoustical engineer/ studio designer recommended that people such as myself (low budget..don't give a shit about aesthetics) should just cram as much insulation as possible into the corners to act as bass traps.  Is this a worthy solution?  

I know I hear 400 Hz crap in my room.  I'm just not sure of the best way to go about fixing it.  I learned on my first room that hanging foam everywhere will only kill the high end and leave mud.  I want high end.  How do I make the room brighter?  

My guess is to maybe finish the hardwood floor with polyurethane, install some bass traps, and then see where that takes me.  

One other problem is I've been placing my drummer very close to the wall and not in the center of the room as I had planned.  This is do to the fact that my cables are shorter than I wanted.  I've considered purchasing a 30 ft snake or so that would allow me to at least put the drums away from the walls.

Thanks
Brandon

[Jim Dugger]

brandondrury wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 02:31

should just cram as much insulation as possible into the corners to act as bass traps.  Is this a worthy solution?   My guess is to maybe finish the hardwood floor with polyurethane, install some bass traps, and then see where that takes me.   One other problem is I've been placing my drummer very close to the wall and not in the center of the room as I had planned.

The bass trap advice is not bad advice.  Just keep in mind it's going to take a few feet thick worth of fiberglass to do any real absorption below 100hz where problematic modes usually exist.

I would finish your floor with linseed oil and wax.  Poly will chip and crack as bass drum spurs are dug into and guitar amps dropped on the floor.  This is nasty.  A nice wax finish floor sounds a bit warmer and is easy to repair -- just rub a little more wax on there!

It's a touch expensive (about $75/gallon) but Briwax is just awesome for this application.  That gallon was good enough for 4 coats on my 150sq ft floor, so it lasts a long time.  I've still got a bit left, too.

[Brian Young]

Have you considered, or tried, getting the drums and amps off of the floor?

[Erik]

Brian Young wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 11:35

Have you considered, or tried, getting the drums and amps off of the floor?

And mic stands...

Also, don't obsess on this "400 Hz" number.  That's a very specific number, and, if it's true, should be damn easy to test.  Rig up something and figure it out... if you know enough to claim it's a problem, then you know enough to test your hypothesis.

--Erik

[brandondrury]

Generally, I toss whatever guitar amp I'm using on top of an extra speaker cabinet.  This guitar the amp at least 3 feet off the floor.  

I haven't figured out a good way to get the drums off of the floor.  I've considered going with a riser, but have never went through with it.  Is there another way to get the drums off the floor.  I do have an 8'x 8' piece of thick carpet that I use under the drums.   I don't think this counts as "getting the drums off the floor", but I thought I would just mention it.


In regard to the 400Hz idea, I'm not saying that there is a spike @ 400 Hz but does not effect 350 Hz, for example.  I may have mentioned that I recorded a drumset live at a bar that I've recorded multiple times.  I've actually recorded this same drumset in 4 different rooms.  Once in my current room, once in my older room (8'x12'x8'...not good), once at his house, and once at a local bar.  The difference between the sheen on the cymbals, crack of the snare, and lack of mud in the toms was night and day when you compare the solo'd overhead tracks from the bar and my studio room.  In fact, I listened to the tunes that I recorded at his house over 1 year ago and I could hear a huge difference.

Whether you call the problem of the room 400Hz, or too much low mid, or mud, or whatever, I know there is a problem.  I guess another way of saying it would be "lack of high end".  Some suggest the problem is due to excessive early reflections and I can't deny this, but I can't see myself extending the ceiling another 10'.

I don't claim to be an acoustician.  If I was going to eq the room I would immediately start yanking out 300-500Hz.  I'm sure I could come up with a test.  I would need a completely flat studio monitor and a completely flat mic that I could stick a meter or so away from the speaker while I play pink noise (or is it white noise) it.  An RTA would give me a good idea of what's going on.  

I've got a pair of Mackie HR824's that would have to suffice.  They seam to be fairly flat in an anechoic room according to the included data.  However, I certainly dont' have any flat reference mics.  I don't think a AKG 414, SM 57, 421, Octava MC012 or any other mic I have would suffice as a testing mic.


What's the deal with mic stands?  I've never heard that being an issue with the room.  

[Jim Dugger]

What is your floor made of?  Did you build it yourself?  If you took a 1" hole saw and cut through it until you hit dirt, what would those layers be?

[brandondrury]

While I'm only about 65% sure, I would say that I have one layer of hardwood flooring.  I'm guess it's 3/4" thick, but I do not knw for sure.  There is about 2 feet under the house to crawl under you hit dirt.  I remember jumping around like an idiot one night and the floor was certainly not the firmest thing in the world.  

The floor is unfinished hardwood.  I'm not sure what's underneath it.  I'd have to check on that one.  I did not build it myself.  The floor was our living room for years.  The house was built about 70 years ago from what my mom tells me.  

When she bought a new home, I kept the old house and tore up the carpet.

Brandon

[rvdsm]

brandondrury wrote on Mon, 26 April 2004 04:07

Maybe it's a problem with all computer based mixing, but I have the feeling that there are all kinds of phase problems bouncing around my entire mixes.  Obviously, I have phase issues when micing drums sometimes, but I'm aware of that and shoving the mics around can usually get rid of the problem.

I own and use Vegas and love it's ease of use. Mixes from Vegas can sound good with minimal phase problems as well as retaining a good wide stereo spectrum, however I believe the problem with Vegas lies in the way it handles effects. I've done mixes in Vegas using the effects chains and aux busses, and then I've done a few where I added all effects to each track in Sound Forge and used Vegas just to mix my tracks down. The mixes done the second way were way less mushy than when adding effects in Vegas.

I wish an insider in the Vegas program would post here so issues like this could be addressed without a lot of speculation.

[Seeker-Ian]

Erik wrote on Wed, 28 April 2004 10:36

And mic stands... Also, don't obsess on this "400 Hz" number.  That's a very specific number, and, if it's true, should be damn easy to test.  Rig up something and figure it out... if you know enough to claim it's a problem, then you know enough to test your hypothesis. --Erik

and look what clown shoe shows up with advice.

"figure it out" is how I was told to get your BF plug ins back in the day.

best advice ever.

But you're ae still the reigning king asshole erik. Glad you dont have any political opinions you like to share. i feel blessed not having you around.

Brandons an Ok kid that gives a shit about his music and has an open mind.

You on the other hand erik, I wouldnt piss on if you were on fire.

[brandondrury]

Just okay?  

I would rather get pissed on!

Do to my fickle nature of bouncing around one thought until I'm bored with it and in order to save myself the intense embarrasment of stating the real problem with my mixes (me), I'm now blaming my rooms.

To fight the room problem, I ordered a semi truck of Rockwool.  We'll see what that does.  I don't intend to use it all...don't worry.

When I can reduce the effects of comb filtering and other assorted acoustical grab bag toys, I expect to hear a big difference in the way my mixes sound.

Until that happens, Vegas off the hook.  (No, I dont' mean that urban street jive, etiher).

Brandon