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[PookyNMR]

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 10:35

Nathan, apparently they do not teach this in Canadian schools but  America has ALWAYS  been a capitalist society, for better or worse.

Well, America has claimed, however, that they are a democracy.  While Capitalism and democracy can vaguely co-exist, they are forces that are often opposed to one another.  

The sad truth is that democracy often looses to Capitalism.  While I have no trouble agreeing with the definition that the USA is a capitalist society, I'm not sure that many folks see how much democracy they are sacrificing in doing so.

quote title=Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 10:35]BTW,  what is your opinion on how well/poorly the Canadian health care system works? I hear very contradictory things from Canadians who have moved to L.A.[/quote]

There was a rough spot during the funding cuts and hideous mismanagement of the Liberal government.  But things have really turned around.

I can say this with all honesty - most of the right wing propaganda that you hear about our medical system down there is pure BS.  We're not a perfect utopia, but the stuff that they are spreading down there is pure lies.

I can also say that in terms of creating a just society, we have that.  Everyone gets the same high quality medical care regardless of their economic status.  No BS with private insurance companies limiting coverage so they can increase profit.

The places where you see the the most problems are in very remote, isolated northern populations.  Ever been to Tuktoyaktuk?  (http://www.tuk.ca/)  You can probably imagine why most doctors don't want to live there.

[Ashermusic]

PookyNMR wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 18:07

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 10:35 Nathan, apparently they do not teach this in Canadian schools but  America has ALWAYS  been a capitalist society, for better or worse. Well, America has claimed, however, that they are a democracy.  While Capitalism and democracy can vaguely co-exist, they are forces that are often opposed to one another.   The sad truth is that democracy often looses to Capitalism.  While I have no trouble agreeing with the definition that the USA is a capitalist society, I'm not sure that many folks see how much democracy they are sacrificing in doing so. quote title=Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 10:35]BTW,  what is your opinion on how well/poorly the Canadian health care system works? I hear very contradictory things from Canadians who have moved to L.A.

There was a rough spot during the funding cuts and hideous mismanagement of the Liberal government.  But things have really turned around.

I can say this with all honesty - most of the right wing propaganda that you hear about our medical system down there is pure BS.  We're not a perfect utopia, but the stuff that they are spreading down there is pure lies.

I can also say that in terms of creating a just society, we have that.  Everyone gets the same high quality medical care regardless of their economic status.  No BS with private insurance companies limiting coverage so they can increase profit.

The places where you see the the most problems are in very remote, isolated northern populations.  Ever been to Tuktoyaktuk?  (http://www.tuk.ca/)  You can probably imagine why most doctors don't want to live there.


[/quote]

First of all we are a Representative Democracy, not a pure democracy and there is a difference.

Capitalism sucks until you compare it to Socialism, Communism, and Fascism at which point it starts to look pretty good IMHO.

It takes individual profit to motivate people. Until the nature of mankind itself changes, and I do not see that happening, it will be so.

Some of the negative comments I have heard about the Canadian health system have come to me from people who moved  from Canada to LA. They say it works fine unless you need first rate emergency surgery/treatment in a hurry and then they end up having to come to the U.S.

You disagree, I take it?

[jwhynot]

Hands up everyone who thinks Canada has socialized medicine.

JW

[PookyNMR]

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 12:21

Capitalism sucks until you compare it to Socialism, Communism, and Fascism at which point it starts to look pretty good IMHO.

I don't know about that.  If your very wealthy I might agree, because capitalism is set up to benefit the wealthy.  If you're not wealthy, your carrying a heavy load, or if you're the working poor, you're totally screwed.  But for everyone who is average or less, some forms Socialism look pretty darn good.  The folks in Northern Europe seem to be doing very, very well with it.  Much better that 90% of us are doing over here.

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 12:21

It takes individual profit to motivate people. Until the nature of mankind itself changes, and I do not see that happening, it will be so.

There's no lack of profit motive in most current forms of Socialism.

What there is is an additional system of social support and social justice for those who need help which is shamefully under-developed on our side of the globe.

The working poor should not die in the richest country in the world because they could not afford health insurance or because their private for profit insurance company decided to let them die that day to raise the bottom line.  

Completely unacceptable in a just society.

If we want to talk profit motive, look at how productive places are that take care of their people.

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 12:21

Some of the negative comments I have heard about the Canadian health system have come to me from people who moved  from Canada to LA. They say it works fine unless you need first rate emergency surgery/treatment in a hurry and then they end up having to come to the U.S. You disagree, I take it?

I do disagree.

How long ago did they come down to the US?  Probably during the Liberal Govt cuts.

My father and some friends have needed emergency care within the past few years.  They all received excellent, timely care.  A few years ago there may have been more of a wait, but now things are clearing up.

Maybe not utopia, but no one gets left behind.

Did you see the movie?

[PookyNMR]

jwhynot wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 13:38

Hands up everyone who thinks Canada has socialized medicine.

Hand down.

[mgod]

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 11:21

Some of the negative comments I have heard about the Canadian health system have come to me from people who moved  from Canada to LA. They say it works fine unless you need first rate emergency surgery/treatment in a hurry and then they end up having to come to the U.S.

They come to the US for emergency care? Huh? You mean they fly from Canada to LA in an emergency? Why, that's - illogical.

That's a strange thing to wonder about for someone living in LA where we have emergency rooms closing all the time because they aren't funded and don't generate profit; and because lacking insurance, emergency rooms have become for first line of medical care for the working poor.  But heaven forbid we provide care for people who can't generate profits for private insurers and private medical facilities. Oh - wait...that's just capitalism, right? Providing for those people and funding the emergency rooms so they don't have to generate profit - that would be...oh my..that would be...social!!!!

Bombs are better - and more expensive. But they are final. We prefer killing to caring. That's capitalism for ya!

It seems to me that anyone who says "Until the nature of mankind itself changes, and I do not see that happening, it will be so" is simply unwilling to change themselves and uses that idea to justify that lack of action. Better others change first. Its more convenient.

DS

[Ashermusic]

[quote title=mgod wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 23:07]

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 11:21

Bombs are better - and more expensive. But they are final. We prefer killing to caring. That's capitalism for ya! It seems to me that anyone who says "Until the nature of mankind itself changes, and I do not see that happening, it will be so" is simply unwilling to change themselves and uses that idea to justify that lack of action. Better others change first. Its more convenient. DS

That is pure hyperbole.

I am for caring where it is the appropriate response like Darfur, the Sudan, etc. We need to do much more and I am proud of former president Clinton for his efforts.

i am for killing where it is the appropriate response like Al Qaeda, the Taliban, etc.

[Ashermusic]

mgod wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 18:03

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 09:32 The dishonest way Michael Moore has edited his films make them polemics, not  documentaries, and therefore what is perhaps valuable becomes hard to trust. It is literally a case of the boy who cried wolf. So you've seen this one then? The boy who cried wolf? Have you ever been sick in America ? DS

While this film may be different from  his past ones, indeed I am told it is,  I will only see the movie when it is on free TV. I want to put as little of my money in Moore's pocket as possible because I feel that he has by and large been a dishonest and destructive  filmmaker.

[Jay Kadis]

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 12:30

I want to put as little of my money in Moore's pocket as possible because I feel that he has by and large been a dishonest and destructive  filmmaker.

I agree about Moore's style, but at this point I also think it's time to fight fire with fire, since that's all that seems to work on the American public.  The message is more important than the messenger.

[Ashermusic]

Jay Kadis wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 23:13

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 12:30  I want to put as little of my money in Moore's pocket as possible because I feel that he has by and large been a dishonest and destructive  filmmaker. I agree about Moore's style, but at this point I also think it's time to fight fire with fire, since that's all that seems to work on the American public.  The message is more important than the messenger.

The message is not however more important than the truth and a lot of times Moore deliberately either distorts, misrepresents, or bald facedly lies. I simply will not support him.

[studiojimi]

the guy is raking in the cakes

wealthy man....a true capitalist

he doesn't need your support

he is just supplying a demand

it's no worse than someone writing a song that they don't really feel and hoping for it to be a hit.

[studiojimi]

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 15:30

I simply will not support him.

does that mean you did not rent or go to his movies?

[Ashermusic]

studiojimi wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 23:52

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 15:30 I simply will not support him. does that mean you did not rent or go to his movies?

Yes. I saw "Roger and Me" and  "Bowling For Columbine" on TV. That was enough.

[PookyNMR]

With "Sicko" the best parts IMHO are the interviews on the bonus features of the DVD.  Some very qualified, experienced experts weigh in on some of the issues.  Some of the information is quite revealing...  Somethings that we cannot afford to be ignorant about no matter how comfortable we feel now.

[Ashermusic]

PookyNMR wrote on Fri, 23 November 2007 18:41

With "Sicko" the best parts IMHO are the interviews on the bonus features of the DVD.  Some very qualified, experienced experts weigh in on some of the issues.  Some of the information is quite revealing...  Somethings that we cannot afford to be ignorant about no matter how comfortable we feel now.

It seems to me that some kind of health care initiative is going to pass since all the Democratic candidates and the Democrat controlled Congress are onboaard. Even a large group of Republicans believe the status quo is not tenable because with all the Baby Boomers retiring the strain on Medicare has to be addressed.

It won't be pretty but I am confident that by 4  years from now it will be better. And it will not be because of Michael Moore though no doubt he will be very busy taking credit for it.