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Author Topic: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now  (Read 8252 times)

CCC

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2007, 02:36:49 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 11:41

I know the topic is Michael Moore and I don't want to detract from that.  However there are two points to be made:
1. The U.N. inspectors told us there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.



I do not think this is quite right. If memory serves, the investigation of the UN inspectors was inconclusive and the documentation that was provided was judged to be incomplete. The Iraqi leadership was, as usual, belligerent and less than cooperative to the last.

If there was a presumption that Iraq was harbouring such weapons such a presumption would be reasonable. The Iraqi leadership used chemical and biological weapons against its own people, and waged war on its neighbors. That Iraq had terrible weapons was well known. That they no longer held that at the time of the recent hostilities was not known.

The true failure, in my humble opinion, was the lack of foresight by the Texas hatrack and friends. They might have guessed that Iraq, being full of people that hate each other more than they hate Americans, would implode once "liberated".
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Jay Kadis

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2007, 02:48:40 pm »

The G.H.W. Bush knew exactly what would happen if they invaded Iraq.  Junior should get a spanking.

You do not want leaders that will take a chance on starting a war when they don't have good intelligence about the enemy, especially when there is no direct present threat.  Bush went to war to avenge his family name after Hussein plotted to have his father killed.  He was looking for the tiniest excuse and 9/11 filled that bill for him.  It's the general population that unquestioningly went along that troubles me.

PRobb

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2007, 03:13:12 pm »

JS wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 14:36

Barry Hufker wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 11:41

I know the topic is Michael Moore and I don't want to detract from that.  However there are two points to be made:
1. The U.N. inspectors told us there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.



I do not think this is quite right. If memory serves, the investigation of the UN inspectors was inconclusive and the documentation that was provided was judged to be incomplete. The Iraqi leadership was, as usual, belligerent and less than cooperative to the last.

If there was a presumption that Iraq was harbouring such weapons such a presumption would be reasonable. The Iraqi leadership used chemical and biological weapons against its own people, and waged war on its neighbors. That Iraq had terrible weapons was well known. That they no longer held that at the time of the recent hostilities was not known.

It's impossible to prove a negative. The inspectors said they could find no evidence for the existence of WMD in Iraq. What's relevant to this discussion is that Moore was slammed for producing a "propaganda film" but time has proved him right.

Quote:

The true failure, in my humble opinion, was the lack of foresight by the Texas hatrack and friends. They might have guessed that Iraq, being full of people that hate each other more than they hate Americans, would implode once "liberated".

That was obvious to most of the world, including Twitboy's father.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2007, 03:17:33 pm »

JS wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 11:36

Barry Hufker wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 11:41

I know the topic is Michael Moore and I don't want to detract from that.  However there are two points to be made:
1. The U.N. inspectors told us there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.



I do not think this is quite right. If memory serves, the investigation of the UN inspectors was inconclusive and the documentation that was provided was judged to be incomplete. The Iraqi leadership was, as usual, belligerent and less than cooperative to the last.

If there was a presumption that Iraq was harbouring such weapons such a presumption would be reasonable. The Iraqi leadership used chemical and biological weapons against its own people, and waged war on its neighbors. That Iraq had terrible weapons was well known. That they no longer held that at the time of the recent hostilities was not known.  


The problem was that Bush was so hellbent on going to war that they pulled out the inspectors, and they never got to do their job.  But it's all irrelevant anyway, because even Wolfowitz himself said that WMDs were simply the only way that everybody in the administration agreed would be the best way to sell going to war.  War was a foregone conclusion.  The failure was with the Congress aks the press to ask tough questions and get real answers.
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garret

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2007, 03:27:57 pm »

I think fundamentally, this was a stupid war-of-choice, started by a stupid person.  Weapons of mass destruction, 9/11, Saddam's brutality toward his own people, etc., all just the reasons of the month.   The real reason we went into Iraq was that Bush and his cadre were (and apparently still are) convinced that they can take over a major oil producer, and install a western-style democracy and capitalist economy.    It's a dangerous mixture of neocon fantasy, and oil baron selfishness...  

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.  Saddam Hussein was a brutal tyrant, but he was no islamofascist idealogue.  Iraq was basically a secular country before we invaded... funny thing about ruthless dictators... they tend to clamp down on religious extremism rather well.

So far, this war-of-choice has cost the U.S. over 3,500 lives and $450 billion dollars.  And don't forget that modern battlefield medicine has saved the lives of tens of thousands more, but left them living with horrific injuries and dependent on a VA system that is in shambles.

Anti-western extremism has exploded as a result, and it's taught many other countries a valuable lesson... Does anyone think we would have invaded Iraq if we knew they had nuclear weapons?   If you have nuclear weapons, you won't get invaded.  Iran and North Korea were watching carefully.

Edit... fixed the typo... 2,500 -> 3,500.
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PRobb

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2007, 03:34:38 pm »

garret wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 15:27

I think fundamentally, this was a stupid war-of-choice, started by a stupid person.  Weapons of mass destruction, 9/11, Saddam's brutality toward his own people, etc., all just the reasons of the month.   The real reason we went into Iraq was that Bush and his cadre were (and apparently still are) convinced that they can take over a major oil producer, and install a western-style democracy and capitalist economy.    It's a dangerous mixture of neocon fantasy, and oil baron selfishness...  

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.  Saddam Hussein was a brutal tyrant, but he was no islamofascist idealogue.  Iraq was basically a secular country before we invaded... funny thing about ruthless dictators... they tend to clamp down on religious extremism rather well.

So far, this war-of-choice has cost the U.S. over 2,500 lives and $450 billion dollars.  And don't forget that modern battlefield medicine has saved the lives of tens of thousands more, but left them living with horrific injuries and dependent on a VA system that is in shambles.

Anti-american extremism has exploded as a result, and it's taught many other countries a valuable lesson... Does anyone think we would have invaded Iraq if we knew they had nuclear weapons?   If you have nuclear weapons, you won't get invaded.  Iran and North Korea were watching carefully.



Most of that is exactly what Moore was castigated for saying in Fahrenheit 9/11.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2007, 03:43:21 pm »

Actually, there were some people, like Cheney presumably, who saw the profitability of the war as motivation: Oil, war profiteering, etc.  However, there were some people who bought into the Wolfowitz Doctrine, which goes something like this: Oust Saddam, democracy will fall into place in Iraq, and a domino effect of democracy will spread through the Middle East, vanquishing Islamic theocracies and eventually (and this is the important point that they saw as the end game) resulting in a democratically elected government in Palestine.

So, Mr. Wolfowitz, how did that theory work out for ya?
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

PRobb

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2007, 04:12:21 pm »

J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 15:43

Actually, there were some people, like Cheney presumably, who saw the profitability of the war as motivation: Oil, war profiteering, etc.  However, there were some people who bought into the Wolfowitz Doctrine, which goes something like this: Oust Saddam, democracy will fall into place in Iraq, and a domino effect of democracy will spread through the Middle East, vanquishing Islamic theocracies and eventually (and this is the important point that they saw as the end game) resulting in a democratically elected government in Palestine.

So, Mr. Wolfowitz, how did that theory work out for ya?

Well, it looks like they were right about the domino effect. Just not quite what they had in mind.
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Careful Collapse

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2007, 04:41:18 pm »

Quote:

I do not think this is quite right. If memory serves, the investigation of the UN inspectors was inconclusive and the documentation that was provided was judged to be incomplete. The Iraqi leadership was, as usual, belligerent and less than cooperative to the last.


Actually, Hans Blix said he did not believe there were WMDs and that, before the war, Iraq was was being cooperative, even pro-active.  Course they were not initially cooperative, but the whole point of the US putting pressure on them was to intimidate them into cooperative.  And it worked.  And they attacked... anyway?

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rollmottle

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2007, 05:20:40 pm »

garret wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 12:27



So far, this war-of-choice has cost the U.S. over 2,500 lives and $450 billion dollars.  And don't forget that modern battlefield medicine has saved the lives of tens of thousands more, but left them living with horrific injuries and dependent on a VA system that is in shambles.





http://icasualties.org/oif/

Period US    UK   Other* Total Avg   Days 6      521   29   4      554   3.48  159 5      933   32   20     985   2.39  412 4      715   13   18     746   2.35  318 3      580   25   27     632   2.93  216 2      718   27   59     804   1.9   424 1      140   33   0      173   4.02  43 Total  3607  159  128    3894  2.48  1572 
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2007, 08:51:56 pm »

Michael Moore and Sanjay Gupta are appearing together on Larry King.  It'll be like Celebrity Death Match, hopefully.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

rphilbeck

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2007, 09:46:41 pm »

Barry,
 John suggests that it is okay to be a liar, thief and cheat if it serves his agenda. I am suggesting that being the above is never acceptable under any circumstance.

  Than you go off on some bizarre little rabbit trail about how everyone who agrees this war is appropriate should have to go fight in it?  I am not following you.  

 
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rphilbeck

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2007, 09:54:45 pm »

J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 20:51

Michael Moore and Sanjay Gupta are appearing together on Larry King.  It'll be like Celebrity Death Match, hopefully.



 Don't know anything about Gupta, but in Columbine Moore attempted to show that gunshot deaths in the U.S. were reaching critical mass, and that it was an issue mostly limited to the U.S.

 He attempts to prove this by comparing the exact number ( NOT PERCENTAGES BUT NUMBERS) of deaths by gunshot in various countries.  Does anyone know why this is flawed and dishonest journalism?  Not to mention math and statistics.  Most middle schoolers do, and so does Moore.

I knew I could not trust any of his work after that.
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PRobb

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2007, 10:04:47 pm »

RPhilbeck wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 21:46

Barry,
 John suggests that it is okay to be a liar, thief and cheat if it serves his agenda. I am suggesting that being the above is never acceptable under any circumstance.

  Than you go off on some bizarre little rabbit trail about how everyone who agrees this war is appropriate should have to go fight in it?  I am not following you.  

 

It's absolutely not OK to be a "liar, thief and cheat". That's why I oppose Bush. Nice to know you agree.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2007, 11:32:04 pm »

RPhilbeck,

I guess you didn't follow because it is sometimes hard to make it through the rabbit hole and into the wonderland that is my head -- complete with Mad Hatters.

What I was attempting to say is that I don't condone evil acts, but that Republicans thrive on them.  Then I jumped to the war between Dems and Republicans -- how there is a real fight between two camps.  The Dems promote healthcare, improvement in the minimum wage, etc while Republican candidates for president only want to yap on about fearmongering and who can out-torture who.


From that war I jumped to the trumped up Republican war in Iraq, which is one of their more evil acts.  At that point I proposed "if a person supports Republicans or is one, then he/she/it should go and fight in the war.  My conclusion being that if they don't they too are hypocrites because they are allowing the war to ruin the lives of other Americans but aren't willing to make that sacrifice themselves.

So my attempt has been to establish stepping stones growing from two disparate philosophies -- the Dem's hope/optimism and ethics against Republican fearmongering/warmongering/corruption/moral decline/hypocrisy.  My conclusion being that of the two parties only the Dems are promoting anything positive.  And as proof of that states like Iowa (which had 75% of its population for the war in Iraq) now has largely turned Democratic with 75% of its population opposed to the war and are making contributions to Dem candidates).

So when someone proposes Dems should lie, cheat, steal to win this ideological war, I understand the temptation because those are Republican tactics and it is often human nature to give people a dose of their own medicine.  My point is that Dems don't need to do that because the American people are finally coming to the realization that they have been lied to and bullied by Republicans.  And they are finally optimistic enough to throw that political party aside.

I admit the previous posting was a bit of a magical mystery tour.  It always is in my head.  Hopefully I stated things more clearly this time.

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