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Author Topic: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now  (Read 8249 times)

Barry Hufker

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2007, 01:28:00 am »

Michael Moore is not a saint, but whenever he makes a film real discussion follows.  That, in a republic, is worth a lot.  Love him or hate him, people begin to examine ideas, circumstances and policies.  How can that be bad?

Of course, he becomes a lightning rod for his efforts.  Instead of people proving the points he makes are not accurate or are plainly false, they attack the man.

Why doesn't someone with an opposing view make a film about how good things are in healthcare, then people would have the other side?  Seems like a good idea.  Oh, I guess they already have.  Those films are called commercials.
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CCC

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2007, 06:57:11 am »

Barry Hufker wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 01:28

Michael Moore is not a saint, but whenever he makes a film real discussion follows.  That, in a republic, is worth a lot.  Love him or hate him, people begin to examine ideas, circumstances and policies.  How can that be bad?



Well, lets put it this way:

There are people who are predisposed to the MM point of view. They do not need to be persuaded.

Then there are people who will never accept the MM point of view. They cannot be persuaded.

Then, in the middle, sits the undecided. They can be persuaded. The art of persuasion, in my humble opinion, is the art of the truth well told.  

Moore tells a good story. But it appears to me that he is fast and loose with the facts. Consequently, although I think I am open minded and able to be persuaded, I remain unpersuaded by him because his work is merely docutainment and lacks credibility. Since he is no better than the people he criticizes I tend to disregard his views. I think this is why he is "bad" - because its too easy to criticize and disregard what he has to say. Much like Ann Coulter.
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bblackwood

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2007, 08:28:28 am »

JS wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 05:57

Moore tells a good story. But it appears to me that he is fast and loose with the facts. Consequently, although I think I am open minded and able to be persuaded, I remain unpersuaded by him because his work is merely docutainment and lacks credibility. Since he is no better than the people he criticizes I tend to disregard his views. I think this is why he is "bad" - because its too easy to criticize and disregard what he has to say. Much like Ann Coulter.

Hey, I've never seen a MM film and doubt I will - I can't stand the guy - so I'm no MM defender. But I have to ask, how does it appear he's "fast and loose with the facts"? Are you getting that from the media or from your own research?
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Brad Blackwood
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danickstr

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2007, 09:07:22 am »

MIchael Moore is like a salesman or lawyer (is there any difference) in that he has a bunch of facts that are detrimental to his point and  another bunch of facts that are not.

He simply chooses to put the "good" facts together in a way that makes it appear that they are a complete set of facts.  This is the art of creative omission.  

I have been moved by his films, not due to his testimony but rather that he found pathetic individuals that had been victimized in some way that was tragic.

I personally feel that his motives for making these films are split down the middle. He is an advocate for the "truth" and a self-aggrandizer.

But I think that is an easy trap into which to fall. The minute we do a good thing for whatever reason, the ego gets a boost, and then we sort of have to balance that against our original reason for doing the good thing, which (hopefully) was to be altruistic.
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Nick Dellos - MCPE  

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maxdimario

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2007, 09:21:06 am »

I sincerely hope that TV goes down the drain and digital 'non-broadcast' information totally replaces it.

I also hope that the internet remains free from the influence of the people who now control the media...

like moore said, if it wasn't for the aid of tv and newspapers the war wouldn't have happened..

if news was based on REALITY instead of convenience that would save a lot of grief for a lot of people..

BTW, If you want to see how lowly and vulgar news media can be come to Italy..

Italian newspapers are financed by the government.

Italian TV is aimed solely at reducing the cultural level of viewers and confusing them into submissive stupor..

I read that Italy is ranked 70th or 80th as far as quality of news in the world. basically the media does what the government and corporate world wants... who'se gonna stop them when the average person is too ignorant to know different?

...but the USA is not far behind..

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CCC

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2007, 09:44:01 am »

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 08:28

JS wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 05:57

Moore tells a good story. But it appears to me that he is fast and loose with the facts. Consequently, although I think I am open minded and able to be persuaded, I remain unpersuaded by him because his work is merely docutainment and lacks credibility. Since he is no better than the people he criticizes I tend to disregard his views. I think this is why he is "bad" - because its too easy to criticize and disregard what he has to say. Much like Ann Coulter.

Hey, I've never seen a MM film and doubt I will - I can't stand the guy - so I'm no MM defender. But I have to ask, how does it appear he's "fast and loose with the facts"? Are you getting that from the media or from your own research?


Depends what you mean by "research". I haven't followed him around and check his facts personally. Some people have, however, done some digging on him and the portrait that they paint is unflattering. For example, check the link I posted earlier on this thread.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2007, 10:48:19 am »

Moore has his agenda.  To me that's fine.  Everyone has an agenda.  And everyone finds the facts that supports their argument.  To me that's standard practice.  Has he got an inflated eqo?  Probably.  I don't know him personally nor have I seen him much on TV.  Have I seen his films?  Some.  Do I think he crosses a line?  Yes.  Do I think we, in this thread, and elsewhere are talking about him, his film and national healthcare?  Absolutely.  To me that's the good of this.  Moore or not, it should be obvious that healthcare in this country is in terrible shape.  So many of those that should have it don't.  That is due to insurance companies, large hospitals, drug companies and the government.  Promoting national healthcare is still a good idea and Moore is making it "visible" again.

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maxdimario

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2007, 10:51:54 am »

Exactly.

there's no use in being correct when it doesn't tell the whole truth..

sometimes to get the point across you have to be every bit as vulgar and blow things out of proportion as your 'opposition'

at least this way someone is forced to look into the matter once and for all PUBLICLY.
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PRobb

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2007, 10:54:38 am »

JS wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 06:57

Moore tells a good story. But it appears to me that he is fast and loose with the facts. Consequently, although I think I am open minded and able to be persuaded, I remain unpersuaded by him because his work is merely docutainment and lacks credibility. Since he is no better than the people he criticizes I tend to disregard his views. I think this is why he is "bad" - because its too easy to criticize and disregard what he has to say. Much like Ann Coulter.

One slight problem with that. That was the conventional dismissal of Fahrenheit 9/11. And, in hindsight, he was the one who got it right.
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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PRobb

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2007, 10:58:45 am »

maxdimario wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 10:51

Exactly.

there's no use in being correct when it doesn't tell the whole truth..

sometimes to get the point across you have to be every bit as vulgar and blow things out of proportion as your 'opposition'

at least this way someone is forced to look into the matter once and for all PUBLICLY.

It's absurd to accuse Moore of not being impartial. It is absurd to accuse him of trying to make make a point. He never denies it. Of course he's partial, of course he's trying to make a point.

As to the truth, here is his rebuttal to the "fact checkers".
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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CCC

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2007, 11:00:50 am »

PRobb wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 10:54


On slight problem with that. That was the conventional dismissal of Fahrenheit 9/11. And, in hindsight, he was the one who got it right.


That was the one movie of his I confess I did not see. Tell me, in that 9/11 movie did he indicate that he knew, before the invasion, that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and upon what information did he base that conclusion?
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2007, 11:41:46 am »

I know the topic is Michael Moore and I don't want to detract from that.  However there are two points to be made:
1. The U.N. inspectors told us there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

2. That was even beside the point.  There was no (and is no, and never was any) link between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda.  I don't think it took Michael Moore, or anyone special, to see that.  That's all my friends and I could talk about as we saw one idiotic move after another towards the war.
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Jessica A. Engle

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2007, 11:44:14 am »

I am not familiar with the political leanings of any of the big cable news networks, because I don't watch any of them.  However, if there were more interviews like this one, I might consider taking it up again.

Take this for what it's worth, but I get the feeling sometimes that everyone wants their news anchor of choice to be like Walter Cronkite, someone (maybe) smarter than you who you can trust and sort of rally behind  (and maybe I have Walter pinned wrong, since I wasn't actually alive yet when he was on the Evening News).

I never understood this.  Maybe because TV news has changed so much since then.  I'd rather watch a real debate where noone wins than watch some news anchors pretend like they're not influenced by corporate sponsors.  Maybe that works for a lot of people, but it makes me feel like they think everyone is stupid.  I don't like that, so I don't watch.

I don't know Michael Moore personally, nor have I ever felt the need to see one of his movies.  But at least he seems interested in the idea that not everyone is stupid.  Even so, no news anchor or independant filmmaker or politician or anyone is going to do all the work for us.... to think so is naieve.  Once people realize that the real work needs to be done on our side of the screen, then change will happen.

I mean, the media is only as useful or useless as we make it, right?  That's why audio engineers exist.  So how do you make sure the right mind "engineers" the news media?  Debate and argument for all to see is the only way I can think of.....

but what do I know?  

Jessica
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2007, 12:19:18 pm »

In any debate, you use the facts available to you to make your case.  Moore actually hires fact checkers for each of his movies.  He's trying to do two things: Advocate a point of view, and entertain.  

The point that Moore is making to Wolf, was that everybody came out and said he was full of shit in 9/11, when he reported the problems at Walter Reed, the fabrication of evidence about WMDs, etc., an it turned out he was right.  And then nobody said, "Wow.  We were wrong and MM was right."  So, he has a chip on his shoulder for news agencies that immediately come out and challenge his assertions, since they did such a bang up job last time.

Whatever that has to do with being a salesman, is irrelevant.
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PookyNMR

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Re: Michael Moore is ripping Wolf Blitzer a new hole on CNN right now
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2007, 01:47:51 pm »

Thanks for that link!  That was worth watching!

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Nathan Rousu
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