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[mcolbert]

oh the ever elusive, ever discussed Toft ATB...
i must hear one soon, or i will find a tall building and get a rifle...
( that joke was in no way intended to offend anyone in the austin, texas area )

[brett]

what DAW are you using? the apogee AD/DA 16 will integrate directly with Logic via symphony cards, and PTHD if you choose to go that route at some point via the x-HD card. Complete DAW integration with the two most recognized DAWS in professional use.

[Jrandomm]

I've been working in DP, but will be switching to Logic as part of the move.

[brett]

Jrandomm wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 19:20

I've been working in DP, but will be switching to Logic as part of the move.

I am sorry to hear that. DP is a major pain in the neck. I have always upgraded and tried the new version hoping for a solid pro version. but it just always falls short on stability. I do like the new features in it. The pitch correction tool is amazing. The next logic will have all that kind of stuff too.

Don't get me wrong, Logic has had it's fair share of bugs too but the track counts and plug-in counts on the macintels smokes everything else. Teh space designer is best convo I have heard. So good it's used on numerous film scores by very prominant composers.

Good news, Logic/apogee symphony systems matched with an AD16, or a rosetta 800 is a killer.  You can realtime monitor plug-ins while tracking with the same latency as PTHD hardware plug-ins. And the track counts and plug-in counts are astronomical on the quadcore. Once they optomize for the 8 cores it's going to be absolutly rediculous.

I like logic a lot. I have used DP, Cubase , Nuendo, PT Etc. and Logic let's me get music done faster. People say it's hard to learn, but I did a track in it the first time I used it with no problems. Comming from DP, you'll have no problem making music straight away. You can do almost everything from the arrange window like you can in PT. I never liked having to switch windows in DP for editing and the overview. I Like everything on the same main window like PT. I use a dual monitor. the arrange window is on the left, and my mixer is on the right which I use to see the subs and fx sends buses.

I also prefer the midi in Logic. Dp does strange things to midi. It doesn't create even blocks. The blocks make it easier to cut copy and paste without having to take the extra step to make an even block. The eq's and filters in Logic are very usable as well.


Best of luck-B

[Jrandomm]

I can't say that I've ever had a problem with DP.  Workflow is smooth, editing is fast, and I've never had a problem with crashing except in +110* temps.  Although, I too have wondered why their midi breaks the way it does in the tracks window.  If I understand you correctly, the consolidated window gives you the same sort of view that PT and Logic do.  The apogee/symphony thing I hope actually works through the mac's audio-setup, in which case it isn't any different than the motu hardware I'm using now.  Are you saying that Logic goes around this and somehow directly works with the apogee drivers, bypassing the mac's control?  I think I might be switching more for collaborative/transferability of projects purposes.

[brett]

Jrandomm wrote on Wed, 15 August 2007 01:38

I can't say that I've ever had a problem with DP.  Workflow is smooth, editing is fast, and I've never had a problem with crashing except in +110* temps.  Although, I too have wondered why their midi breaks the way it does in the tracks window.  If I understand you correctly, the consolidated window gives you the same sort of view that PT and Logic do.  The apogee/symphony thing I hope actually works through the mac's audio-setup, in which case it isn't any different than the motu hardware I'm using now.  Are you saying that Logic goes around this and somehow directly works with the apogee drivers, bypassing the mac's control?  I think I might be switching more for collaborative/transferability of projects purposes.

actually your consolidated window is a bunch of windows maahed together. the main window in PT and logic is completely diferent. Even the socalled "Protools" layout in DP is lame. as far as stability, it was all midi timing issues and sample accuracy using softsynths and rewire was off even in 4.5. I never tried 5. But for fast navigation and editing PT is the best. for midi implimentation and score Logic steps in. As far as your motu gear being laid out like symphony...well, it still sounds like motu gear and the latency is not 1.5 miliseconds like it is on symphony thru the bus. We are not talking about monitoring the DSP mixer on your 424 card. We are talking, monitoring the software DSP of the native system as fast as PTHD hardware plugs! Totally diferent game and quality alltogether.

Motu stuff is good consumer stuff, but we had a a lot of problems with the powersupplies going out and with interfaces cutting out or having clocking issues. I just cannot with a straight face compare a symphony system with apogee front end to DP and a motu interface.  

[brett]

Came back and tried DP4.61 and find it to be very stable. Last version of DP used was 4.52 and it was aweful. I am on 10.3.9. This app handles multi-out softsytnhs better than other apps I have used, and the midi input to these is very intuitive. Using multi-tibral and multi-output instruments in Logic is a bit of a hassle to setup. And yesterday I was having issues trying to get midi to the other channels on kontakt in Logic. It simply wasn't recieving it from the input object I created.

In DP it just works and you are not limited to only 16 outputs. DP can handle a BFD instrument with all outputs active. One complaint about DP, is how it makes midi blocks to the actual midi instead of snapping to what the grid is set to...like a full measure. also DP uses a little more CPU. I imported all the audio from a logic session and arranged it in DP and inserted some plug-ins. the CPU was maxing and it wasn't running nearly as many plug-ins as the Logic session was. I know this is still the case on newer versions running on macpro's. I could see symphony running on DP or Logic on a new Macpro is a viable DAW for me. I will probably use them both for a while and see which fits better. That pitch tool alone for fixing vocal takes is brilliant. I have melodyne in Logic for a similar solution.

[Jrandomm]

Quote:

As far as your motu gear being laid out like symphony...well, it still sounds like motu gear and the latency is not 1.5 miliseconds like it is on symphony thru the bus. We are not talking about monitoring the DSP mixer on your 424 card. We are talking, monitoring the software DSP of the native system as fast as PTHD hardware plugs! Totally diferent game and quality alltogether. I just cannot with a straight face compare a symphony system with apogee front end to DP and a motu interface.

I was not comparing the MOTU vs. Apogee hardware, I was comparing the way DP vs. Logic work operate in the Mac and the way the apps see the hardware.  In both cases I was referring to the Symphony system.  So then, the system I was proposing was DP using the Symphony system.  When you wrote

Quote:

Good news, Logic/apogee symphony systems matched with an AD16, or a rosetta 800 is a killer. You can realtime monitor plug-ins while tracking with the same latency as PTHD hardware plug-ins. And the track counts and plug-in counts are astronomical on the quadcore. Once they optomize for the 8 cores it's going to be absolutly rediculous.

I thought that you were comparing Logic/symphony to DP/symphony. I know the latency is atrocious the way it is now. I was wondering if that could be fixed simply by changing hardware.

I think my real question is:
Disregarding the hardware, are the apps' inherent latency significantly different?

(I do notice a heavy CPU drain when using DP, though)

[brett]

from what I have read on unicornation, yes, even on the macpro's users are not getting the super low latency using symphony that Logic users are when monitoring native. Logic users are reporting buffers of 64 and at 96k that yeilds 1.6 ms. In DP they are having iussues running at 128 and are getting latencies more like 3-4ms. Most users have the buffer at 512. One user stated he thought the latency was even higher than the system is stating in the buffers. Of course, you can always direct monitor with symphony using meastro just like CueMix with almost no latency. You just can't use the native plugs or get that low latency with your softsynths. that is important to me. I want to be able to use my v-drums to trigger BFD without having to record the midi forst using my TD-module.  

Seems DP has some fat to trim to be able to match the CPU performance of Logic. Unfortunatly I don't see them catching up as Leapard is about to pounce and it will be back to the drawing board to solve all the bugs and stability issues all over again. Meanwhile Apple is already tweeking their next generation Logic. They just have an inhouse headstart on everything they script compared to thirdparties who get the source later and may not know about some of the streamlining tricks Apple does.

[breathe]

Lynx Aurora 16 sounds awesome and costs $3k new.  I actually strongly suspect it sounds better (or at least more transparent) than the Apogee AD/DA-16x converters.

Nicholas