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[Jrandomm]

I know you've all gone over this many times before, but I can't seem to find a solid answer when I'm searching the forums.  I've been recording bands into a DAW using two MOTU 896's since they came out.  I'm looking to upgrade my pre's and converters while maintaining the same channel count for under 10k (12k max.  Sorry, I spent the rest of my budget on a new room).
(I would rather look at similar than disimilar pre's at this point.  I already have outboard gear that I'm still really digging.)

Not part of the main question, but, if I'm ditching the 896's I also need control room and headphones monitoring solutions as well if anyone wants to comment.

[littlehat]

http://www.blacklionaudio.com/motu_firewire_mod.html

[Andrew Hamilton]

I like most of what I read about the Black Lion upgrades, however, I was dismayed to read their blanket statement about switching power supplies versus linear:

"We've never been big fans of switch mode supplies in audio, mostly because of the way they seem to strip the audio of any real body or impact."


Didn't we put this notion to rest in the L2 mod post?


Andrew

[littlehat]

Not claiming anything other than this...

The mods do work, and are a great value.

Mine (MBox) took too long.

But I'm happy.

[Tim Halligan]

Jrandomm wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 08:59

Not part of the main question, but, if I'm ditching the 896's I also need control room and headphones monitoring solutions as well if anyone wants to comment.

Toft ATB.

Cheers,
Tim

[brett]

Tim Halligan wrote on Sun, 01 July 2007 04:30

Jrandomm wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 08:59 Not part of the main question, but, if I'm ditching the 896's I also need control room and headphones monitoring solutions as well if anyone wants to comment. Toft ATB. Cheers, Tim

AD16x DA16x, symphony card,  and a Toft ATB. Should come in right at 12k.

[danickstr]

Keep one 896 for toms and other crap. Get the Lavry Blue or the DAC, Mytek, whichever flavor you like, then get the Toft.

The good converter does not need to come with 16 channels.  How many things need 16 channels of good conversion.

[calaverasgrandes]

I was reading through the BLA site today also and noticed a lot of his statements are very audiophile-esque. I also noticed the switch-mode power supply comment and one asserting that 3rd order cyrstal osc with divide down is better than one from the fundemental for jitter specs. Tell that to Dan Lavry.

OTOH I hear rave reviews on all the audio msg boards about the conversions.Especially for the MOTU. Sadly he no longer offers the internal clock mod, but instead sells an external clock source. Plan on getting the mod on my 828MKII after I get a 2nd interface (probably a cheapie that I can road with)

[Jrandomm]

Thanks for all the recommendations.  I've never heard of BLA before now.  I guess I just never thought of modding the 896's.
The ATB is indeed something I've been eyeing since before it came out.  If the eq's are like the ATC (which I do thoroughly enjoy as much for their musicality as their brutality) then I will probably be going down that road.  As far as converters go, another unit I am looking at as a possibility is the Lynx Aurora 16 (which would drop the cost from the Apogees about 3k).  Is this really a significant upgrade or would I still be better off modding the 896's and using them only as converters?
While it may be a short-sighted quantification...
BLA mod=$500
Lynx Aurora+PCI=$3600
$3100 difference in audio?

[Jrandomm]

Is there anywhere in the Los Angeles area that I can go to check out an ATB?  It appears it is my best option, but I'd like to look into it a little more and possibly hear one.

Are the Apogee 16X (or the Mytek 8X192), as opposed to the Lynx Aurora, worth the extra money as mixing DA's? This is a question about the AD's for tracking as well, since I usually do as few overdubs as possible here.

[johnR]

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 22:52

I like most of what I read about the Black Lion upgrades, however, I was dismayed to read their blanket statement about switching power supplies versus linear: "We've never been big fans of switch mode supplies in audio, mostly because of the way they seem to strip the audio of any real body or impact."

Damn. That'll be why Apogee 16X and the new Neve units have such a reputation for poor sound quality. I'm sticking to Behringer.

[mixwell]

To answer your question about the Lynx,

Yes it is a significant difference in sound quality!

Believe me, I have a Motu 828Mk2, and I use the thing as a HIGH PASS FILTER!! If you ask me, converters should not sound like cold, brittle, lifeless caca!!!!!

The Aurora has got to be one of the most accurate, true to the source A/D D/A's out there. What other professional device offers 16 AD and DA in one RU rack space! The Lynx setup would be a great way to get professional sounding conversion at a really great price point.

Just pair the Aurora 16 with an AES 16 for complete integration into your software.

To my ears, the Lynx series PCI cards and converters, do not impart any coloration or tonal change in your audio. The Lynx has  really clear, present and extremely detailed frequency response.

The Aurora will allow you to really "hear" your tracks. If you have a more accurate converter, you can focus your microphones better, as there will be no "sound" from the conversion. You will be able to better judge the tone of your microphones and line signals going to "tape".

The same can be said for the Apogee series converters. In my honest opinion, the AD and DA 16x's are the cream of the crop as far as professional AD DA conversion. The Apogee AD/DA 16x's have the most amazing musical texture that certainly complements many types of music, such as rock, R&B, pop, hip-hop, smooth jazz, etc..etc..

The Apogee has a really "BIG" bottom end with a smooth, rich midrange and top end. I have also found that when clocking the Lynx from the Apogee Big Ben master clock, the depth of stereo field is increased and the bottom becomes tighter and just as "BIG" as the apogee can be. Something to think about.

I think either way, the addition of the ATB will allow all the versatility and professional results you are after.

peace
mixwell
 

[Andrew Hamilton]

johnR wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 09:49

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 22:52 I like most of what I read about the Black Lion upgrades, however, I was dismayed to read their blanket statement about switching power supplies versus linear: Damn. That'll be why Apogee 16X and the new Neve units have such a reputation for poor sound quality. I'm sticking to Behringer.

Actually, the Behringer PowerPlay headphone amp has gotten rave reviews from my vocalist clients.  Furthermore, as Dan Lavry argues ( http://www.lavryengineering.com/lavry_forum/viewtopic.php?t= 301)

switching supplies have come a long way since their inception.  And they are often more costly to implement than their linear corollaries.  When properly filtered they can be more efficient and benign to the circuit than a toroid.  


{Fletcher, himself, replied to my questioning Waves' use of a switching supply in the hardware L2, versus the linear supply used in the MaxxBCL:
"Actually modern switching supplies can be pretty damn noise free and not mess with the quality of the audio.

"There was a piece in which I was involved in the development where we A/B'ed a switching supply against a linear supply and I know I sure as hell couldn't tell the difference. The switching supply wasn't "off the shelf" and developed by the designer so it was "done right". It's also far less critical with digital unita than it is with analog units... and there are some tricks that can be done [especially with digital units] that make the switching effect absolutely a non-entity."}

_andrew    

[johnR]

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 02:57

Actually, the Behringer PowerPlay headphone amp has gotten rave reviews from my vocalist clients.  Furthermore, as Dan Lavry argues (  http://www.lavryengineering.com/lavry_forum/viewtopic.php?t= 301) switching supplies have come a long way since their inception.  And they are often more costly to implement than their linear corollaries.  When properly filtered they can be more efficient and benign to the circuit than a toroid.

Yes, if properly designed and implemented, a switch mode PSU will work fine in audio gear. Problems arise when manufacturers use cheap off-the-shelf PSU modules, but those haven't been designed with high quality audio in mind. I was just a little surprised to see that blanket statement from BLA.

[YZ]

Just a quick note about the ATB console:

It does not have Solo on all monitor returns, only on the 8 main monitors located at the group output modules.

So for 16 ch monitoring you would have to use the faders if you want the ability to solo anything.