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[CHANCE]

Perhaps it would be interesting for an IMP to have input, the kind we would get from a paying client. That would take away some of the colorful mixes/ideas/creativity, but would be interesting to see the different paths we take to hopefully acheive the goal that the client is looking for.

[ScotcH]

CHANCE wrote on Mon, 25 June 2007 20:23

Perhaps it would be interesting for an IMP to have input, the kind we would get from a paying client. That would take away some of the colorful mixes/ideas/creativity, but would be interesting to see the different paths we take to hopefully acheive the goal that the client is looking for.

That would be a great idea.  Most bands will have a reference cd (or more) that they like the sound of.  Working with a reference would be a cool excercise, and finding out how people did it would be a good learning op.  Post up an IMP, along with a reference!

[j.hall]

while that has it's positives, it simply doesn't support what IMP is attempting to teach.

at it's core, IMP is all about instincts.  mixing completely blind, helps you to better understand your own instincts, and how to capitalize on them.  thus far, i think it's really working for a lot of people.

AND.......i set up IMP to most closely resemble a real world situation, which for me (and that's all i know for real world) is a band delivering tracks and saying "make it rock".

[CHANCE]

j.hall wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:57

while that has it's positives, it simply doesn't support what IMP is attempting to teach. at it's core, IMP is all about instincts.  mixing completely blind, helps you to better understand your own instincts, and how to capitalize on them.  thus far, i think it's really working for a lot of people. AND.......i set up IMP to most closely resemble a real world situation, which for me (and that's all i know for real world) is a band delivering tracks and saying "make it rock".

Good point. This will also allow us to use our minds, not just our skills to achieve what someone else might desire. It will let our "gut feelings" to become part of the chemistry of the project which makes it much more enjoyable.

[j.hall]

yes!!!!!  and through that, you are able to bring more of yourself to the projects you do.

my mentor once told me, "you have to be yourself, and let your own personal style come out, otherwise, why would any one hire you."

that's kinda scary at first, but once you dig into it, you realize it's 100% right.

[ScotcH]

j.hall wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 21:57

AND.......i set up IMP to most closely resemble a real world situation, which for me (and that's all i know for real world) is a band delivering tracks and saying "make it rock".

No porblem ... in J we trust  Curious though ... you're saying you don't usually get any reference materials when a band shows up?  This seems really odd.  In most situations, I would think that the artist has some ideas in their head, and they bring in what they like, or think their stuff could sound like.  Mind you I have no professional experience with this (yet), but I know what I did when we recorded

[j.hall]

i would have agreed with you 5 years ago.  from that point to present, i've seen a shift in my clients.  the more a band or artist understands the process, the more they seem to just hire the right people and let them work.

bands that micro manage me typically are young and amateur.

i'm RARELY involved in tracking, and when i am, the bands are much more vocal about what they want.  

so, any more, i just don't get much input.

the most input i've gotten in years is a recent project the main writer asked that i not use any samples for the drums.

[Fibes]

Iain Graham wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 20:21

If done correctly, the samples or whatever don't change the artistic direction, they just make the recording sound better.

Erm. This is of course out of context, and I don't mean to belabor the discussion but I have a line I draw with generalisation.

My personal belief that music is most natural and endearing when you can hear the soul of the artist through their instrument. Adding samples removes that or at the least shields it. Sure, one could argue that eq does the same thing. The expressiveness of a player can make the difference between OK and WOW. Yeah, in todays realm it's more about polishing turds than creating gold bars.

Just thought i'd share my thoughts on "the line."

So, when you turn down the mids in a kick with the eq you are essentially removing the artists "eyebrows/expressiveness" and it should be kept in mind before you commit.

It's a game of inches, I wish more people had rulers.

[j.hall]

i disagree about EQ.  i see your point with samples.

EQ is my chance to correct recording erros, and/or create something more appropriate for the expressiveness of the performance.  often times, in the basement recordist climate, the tracking hinders the performance, and EQ is one of very few weapons to gain anything back.

i've used samples MANY times to get a drum kit where the artist wanted it.  if you take the time (yes it takes time) you can work a sample to the dynamics of the original, or close enough.

keep in mind, my last four projects have not used samples at all!!!!

though i do mult snares and kicks for additional processing to blend back in.

[Fibes]

Yeah J. but i'm totally serious about the EQ on bass drum.

Think Bonham

He has plenty of mids in his kick.

You can hear his foot.

You can hear every nuance.

Just like that kick you used on IMP 12.

Suck the mids out to make it lay in a dense mix and you have no more of J.s personality.

So anyway.

I'm not alone on this.

There's a fat guy in Jersey that owes me a cigar who agrees.

[j.hall]

that fat guy in jersey is CRAZY, and until he shows up here to blabber his way through some analogy to mid 16th century oil paints vs. pastels and how it relates to EQ'ing a kick drum, then it doesn't count.

with drums in particular, it's a hard argument for me.  aside from dynamics, a drummer simply has his beat and his groove around the tempo.  EA seems silly to bring into the drummers arena.

vocals and guitar i might be pursuaded.  honestly, i just don't see how EQ changes the timing of a part, which to me, is the biggest form of expression.

[Fibes]

Not the timing.

The emphasis.

The "eyebrows" as Zappa described the personality of the player coming through.

Sure, you have those guys (and genres) that hit the bass drum with the same attack and tone every time. I'm not talking about that, i'm talking about the guys who are interacting dynamically with the other players. Where the way the instrument is struck is directly influencing the tone. Samples cover this (sometimes this is a good thing) up, all i'm saying is that sometimes things should remain inconsistent and that by sterilizing this stuff with replacement "tones" we are sucking more and more soul out.

I'm not saying we avoid the use of tools i'm merely reiterating earlier points about when and when not to use them.

Personally i consider it to be a last resort unless artistically directed.

[J-Texas]

... and the Peanut Gallery said: Amen brother.  

[j.hall]

i thought we were talking about EQ, not samples.

i agree about samples, though i'll continue to use them to get what i want.

EQ on the other hand.  i don't agree at all.  EQ doesn't change a performance to me.

it can if you are HPF a bass guitar at 600 Hz, but extremes aren't what we're talking about.

to claim EQ changes the performance, you have to assume that the drummer knows exactly what the mic sounds like.  the only thing the drummer knows is what his kit sounds like in the headphones with what you're sending him AND all the bleed of thea ctual kit.  so to him, the drums sound HUGE as he is hearing all the lowend of the live kit.  i know this to be true as i've been the drummer on countless sessions.

[Fibes]

J. I'm obviously not communicating this well enough.

In modern times the fad is to eliminate all mids from the bass drum. To make room for whatever, loud guitars, gargling or synths or whatever.

To me, the elimination of this part of the eq spectrum on the bass drum is neutering the "expressive" range of the instrument. Sure, it's great to feel the low end and hear a crack at 3k but what i'm talking about is the "voice" of the drum. It's that range where the nuances and emotion lie. Admittedly it's not wholly a part of the rock realm but it is in some instances.

The bass drum in IMP 12 was one such drum that "spoke" with the mids intact.