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[ted nightshade]

Fletcher wrote on Sun, 25 April 2004 06:17

With all due respect, in the days of tape, there was a noticable loss of high end over time with a project, especially a project on "one reel".  As the tape passed over the heads, was mashed by the captan, over, and over, and over again, there was a palpable loss of treble, which some engineers, myself included, compensated for by pushing the top when recording.

I could see how that would be inevitable with all the overdubbing... I've never done a reel-to-reel project with much overdubbing, generally I get it all down live in a pass or two, and so maybe that's why I'm really not liking hyped highs even on tape...

Quote:

I have always found microphones based around the AC 701/k tube to have a wonderful, sensual texture... not overly bright, but generally airy, clear, and most importantly "better than being there".

I've been trying to make sense of these Schoeps 221B's I just got- is the AC701 in there the same tube? Ever played with those? I'm finding the MK24 cardioid cap I have to be overly bright, but it has this treble boost built in... What you say gives me hope that with some capsules without the treble boost, I might be pretty dang happy with these.

Quote:

Perhaps it's just me, but I have found that the "brightness" wars don't really lead to clarity, they lead to fatigue and distraction as it gets more and more difficult to become enveloped by the music... in many [far too many] of the recording I hear today, there is a 'two dimensional' nature to them that I can at least partially attribute to the thought that "brighter is better" with all too many of the condenser microphones on the market today. As always... your mileage may vary...

I think you need a balanced, natural spectrum to get into the depth and detail of the music... hyped highs make it hard to tune the ear to subtleties. Must make our brains work hard to ignore all that as best we can. Basically, I agree.

[lucey]

Fletcher is right in that mics were bright to compensate for tape.  Yet most LD mics continue to be bright, years in to the digital era, with only a few opting to go more neutral or dark in recent years.

Generally they've gone for a pre-eq'd vocal sound, with the home recording surge demanding better/cheaper vocal mics.   Even the better companies were swayed by the fight for that customer (TLM 103, U195, Valvet)

The thought seemed to be 'tailor it to vocal and the rest of the uses are secondary', which makes sense until you have a closet full of similar mics.

[Jacob]

Fletcher.

What mikes use the AC 701/k tube?

Jacob

[ernie5]

Is "flattering" the same thing as "bright"?

[ted nightshade]

ernie5 wrote on Mon, 26 April 2004 12:06

Is "flattering" the same thing as "bright"?

I don't think so, necessarily... proximity effect can really flatter, and that's about lows.

[seriousfun]

Let's not forget what might be IMO the top reason why "bright" mics evolved to be chosen for lead vocals: Stereo.

Moving from Mono to two-channel, vocals were typically placed in the phantom center of the mix. Phantom placement (a sound mixed equally, in-phase, to both mix channels, listened to from precisely in-between the speakers at the tip of the equilateral triangle...) causes a dip in the frequency response, because of the size and shape of our heads. A mic with a natural bump in that same range would have been instinctively chosen to track a rock vocal for a stereo mix (as opposed to, say, a ribbon mic).

This need doesn't go away with the advent of digital, but the hyped high-end can be harder to take when we aren't waging the war between the analog noise floor and distortion ceiling. Hence, the trend toward darker preamps, ribbon mics, etc. 5.1 mixing returns us to the world of mono if significant use of the center channel is chosen for the lead vocal.

[fabian]

Quote:

That's my lament of the M149- while it still has the beautiful K47 capsule, its amp is one over-convoluted processing and phase shift to the point of fatigue over long listening periods. Never such experience with an M49.

Is it possible to mod an M149 to make it more like an M49?

[Klaus Heyne]

fabian wrote on Thu, 29 April 2004 06:48

Is it possible to mod an M149 to make it more like an M49?

   I wish. The mic's innards are op-amp chips, there is no transformer, there is no discreet circuitry to experiment on and an M149 has basically the same electronics as all Red Badge Neumanns: One chip design serves all.

The tube, by the way, is only active in this mic in cardioid pattern, as front end of a multi-transistor op amp, in all other patterns the mic operates strictly on solid state.

Answer:
It's not cost efficient to gut a whole mic and redesign it just to make use of and salvage a genius capsule.

Kind regards,

[malice]

Klaus Heyne wrote on Fri, 30 April 2004 06:40

fabian wrote on Thu, 29 April 2004 06:48 Is it possible to mod an M149 to make it more like an M49?    I wish. The mic's innards are op-amp chips, there is no transformer, there is no discreet circuitry to experiment on and an M149 has basically the same electronics as all Red Badge Neumanns: One chip design serves all. The tube, by the way, is only active in this mic in cardioid pattern, as front end of a multi-transistor op amp, in all other patterns the mic operates strictly on solid state.

I think I'm gonna be sick

how gross

that explain



denis" the malice" moulin

[malice]

Jacob wrote on Mon, 26 April 2004 20:59

Fletcher. What mikes use the AC 701/k tube? Jacob

Klaus will have to complete my list

ELAM 251 Telefunken
U269c
SM69 stereo
SM2 stereo
U64/KM64/KM63/KM65/KM66
KM53/54
M49
M50
SCHOEPS 221b,

some of MM measurement mike

huuuuuuh

did I miss a legend ?



malice (denis moulin, the obnoxious french guy, you know ...)

[Klaus Heyne]

Wow, Dennis - Impressive!

You did not miss a legend, (aside from a couple of add-ons from your list: KM56, SM23) but you missed the opposite of a legend, if there ever was such a thing: The infamous AKG C60!

Klaus

P.S.: And let's not forget the new Schoeps M222 built entirely on an obsolete tube (see related thread from last week)

[Plush]

did I miss a legend ?

YOu did miss one legend--Neumann 367 used by French radio.

[malice]

Plush wrote on Wed, 05 May 2004 18:45

did I miss a legend ? YOu did miss one legend--Neumann 367 used by French radio.

Shame on me, i'm french

That made me think I forgot every special ORTF (starting with 3)

as well as special broadcast like M153, M154, M156 etc ...

damn

can remember all

malice

[prairiedog]

How exciting! If a darker LDC is sometimes desirable, does that mean my clients will eventually stop making fun of my AKG "Solid Tube" ?

It's my 'go to' mike whenever I'm one short, a mic I bought when I was just starting out and that's just not worth selling at this point. It sounds considerably darker than my others, but very usable midrange (at least through an API 312).

Please mock this microphone freely, I need the motivation to save $$ for an ELUX 251.

Thank You
prairiedog (Jason Keillor)  

[Klaus Heyne]

I'd like to make a nice, clean distinction between 'dark" and "low- res":
Dark, i.e. condensers with an unhyped high and mid-high frequency behavior, may still have superb resolution, that is, the ability to transport a high degree of the detail of the original sonic event through the mic and on to the next component (mic pre or what have you) without much loss.

As an example, the M49 comes to mind here. A mic which is consistently underrated because its high end is not hyped. This mic translates a high degree of detail [Miles Davis, Streisand, Neil Diamond (yes, him!), countless other professionals of the first order] in most effortless, relaxed way, that is easy on the ear and "ergonomic" , i.e. non-fatiguing during long listening and working sessions.

Whereas an entry level mic, like some of AKG's or Neumann's or countless other op-amp transformerless chip designs, some even married to electret capsules, may also appear dark on first listen, but fine points of the sonic event will not be translated and emotional attraction will never appear.

Just some food for thought.