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Author Topic: needed forum- hearing issues!  (Read 14040 times)

Hoh

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2004, 03:27:18 PM »

Hey Ted ... just dropping in here from the Gearslutz forum ...

It's really great to see so many people actually starting to take hearing more seriously ... hope to see many more of these threads popping up



Hoh Smile ... and yes, yes I am Smile
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ricknroll

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2004, 07:16:03 PM »

Fletcher wrote on Thu, 22 April 2004 20:57

 Marquee Moon on CD is a good example of the audio interfering with the musical presentation].



I know this is off topic, but are you saying the vinyl version sounds better than the CD?  I just ordered a new pressing from Acoustic Sounds - too bad I don't have the CD version to compare it to (or an original pressing of the album, for that matter).

-Rick
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erikj

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2004, 04:56:21 PM »

ted nightshade wrote on Thu, 22 April 2004 18:28


Clamor on! We need a forum like this somewhere- seems like what most people mean by "hearing" is a crude business compared to the kind of stuff folks around here need to do...


Maybe a forum about hearing, ear-training, psychoacoustics, listening experiments, etc...

The "Aural Pleasure" forum

-e
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Brent Handy

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2004, 11:25:53 AM »

The following is an article that I wrote for www.experiencingworship.com about hearing loss.  It is generic, but some may find it educational.

There is a movement in the audio industry. Artists and engineers are taking a look at the cold hard Sound Pressure Level (SPL) facts. Most commercial events have loudness levels and exposure times exceeding OSHA's limits for the workplace.
Let there be no misunderstanding. I have worked for one of the loudest guitar players on the planet, and I am sure we have hurt some people. After a show, a fan came up to me and said. "I never had guitar feedback punch me in the chest like that." Also that night, one of Elvis Presley's original studio players was in the house. He commented on being able to hear WELL without his hearing aids. I was guilty of excessive SPL's. I have changed my ways. It is time for those of us in the Church to follow the example, and take a look/listen at our own excessive SPL's.

There have been many bands, promoters and venue owners sued over hearing loss. If YOU buy a ticket to Metallica, and YOU know what the band is, what music they play, and what they represent, then YOU (in my book of common sense) are responsible to either not go, or bring hearing protection. DUH! These lawsuits may have been silly, but they are a wake-up call. We should be as cautious about an incident like this, as we would a "slip and fall." Both of these events can have a BIG impact on your insurance rates, and presence of OSHA, state and federal representatives in your facility.

This does bring me to another point.  OSHA's time exposure standards have been set as a guide to limit exposure, that will contribute to permanent nerve damage.  The OSHA time exposure standard DOES NOT account for a temporary hearing threshold shift.  There are as many exposure times for shift as there are people on the planet.

Without getting too technical, lets look at some facts. Our hearing system can experience three types of hearing loss: Conductive, Sensorineural, and Mixed. Conductive hearing loss can occur if the structures of the outer ear to middle ear do not work properly. Conductive loss is more likely to respond to medical and/or surgical treatment. Sensorineural loss is nerve deafness. Sensorineural loss is more permanent. Mixed includes both of these types. We are most concerned with preventing nerve deafness, as it is attributed to high SPL's and/or high SPL's for extended exposure times. Leon has an article with an SPL chart in it, so I won't replicate one here. Suffice it to say, that if you are averaging 90dB or above for the duration of the service, then you are too loud!

A loss of up to 20dB Hearing Level (HL) is considered "normal" hearing. A loss of 21-45dB HL is considered "mild." People with a "mild" loss may experience difficulty understanding a soft spoken person or speech at a distance. Understanding speech over background noise may be difficult. "Moderate" loss is 46-65dB HL. People with this loss have a hard time with one on one speech in any environment. Trying to hear over background noise is extremely difficult. "Severe" loss, 66-85dB HL prohibits conversation, unless the speaker is talking loudly at close range. The last step is "profound" loss, from 86dB HL on up. Communicating is generally used by other means, as they cannot hear even the loudest sounds.

Our hearing is especially sensitive to the human vocal range. Specific frequencies are very important for speech to be intelligable. Our vowel energy is below 1kHz. Above 1kHz is the information needed for consonants. 44% of our comprehension is between 1.5kHz and 3kHz. A person with moderate loss might have a loss below 1kHz, and a substantial loss in the upper frequencies, and still hear sounds like l, b, m, a, but would not be able to hear sounds like p, k, sh, th, etc..

I'll be honest. As a techinal director, I would dread the Tuesday morning staff meetings. I would get compliments and complaints about the same issue. People with "normal" hearing heard how great the sound was. People without hearing complained that it wasn't intelligable. They felt the SPL through conductivity, but it was muffled sensorineurally. What did I do? Education and hearing testing. I am not going to say that the problems went away, but it helped. People with hearing loss are generally in denial, and very proud. Ironically they where glasses that tells the world that they can't see well, but they won't wear an invisable hearing device that will help them get back to experiencing life aurally.

My brother, Brian Handy, Ph.D., and I saw a need years ago for education in the Church. Churches need to know that they must stop endangering the hearing systems. We wouldn't think of damaging the eyesight with blinding light or lasers in the retina. So why damage one of the other senses? We cannot make it to every church that calls us. I have listed some organizations that you may contact. They can connect you with certified specialists in your area, that will help meet the needs of the hearing impaired in your membership. This may also be a great way to minister to your local community as well.

To find speech-language pathologists and audiologists, contact the American Speech and Hearing Association (ASHA) at www.asha.com. To find your state board certified specialists, contact www.hearingbc.org. The International Hearing Society can recommend hearing professionals by contacting them at www.ihinfo.org. The National Institute on Deafness Other Communication Disorders (NIDCD) and Hereditary Hearing Impairment Resource Registry (HHIRR) can be contacted at 1-800-320-1171.

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ted nightshade

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2004, 09:20:01 PM »

Thanks Brent! Good article.

I would indeed expect Metallica to be very loud, but I'm not sure that many people at such a show are really considering the possibility of nerve damage. And certainly destructive levels are common in many other places, without an ominous black vibe.

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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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Brent Handy

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Here's an interesting link
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2004, 03:08:48 AM »

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j.hall

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Re: tinnittus
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2004, 10:42:01 AM »

clicktrack wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 15:05

I recently got my hearing tested and showed no significant losses (whew!)



first off.....that's awesome

secondly, getting a hearing test done only covers so much.

a standard hearing test is only designed to cover typical speech frequencies.  they typically go from 125Hz, to about 8k, if that.

so all of us getting out hearing checked once a year is very important, but you need to pad the results in your mind as merely a general frequency sweep and not full spectrum.

i've had many, many conversations with my ENT and audiologist about this.  they tell me there are machines that test your ears from 20 - 20k but they are MUCHO expensive and they would be happy to rent one if i want to be tested on it.

i will probably request it next time, but i fear the results as my chart looks pretty good right now, and i'm not sure i want to know.

all this talk about irreversible damage and this that and the other.  i watched a whole discovery program on new research in the ear.  with out going into pages of typing, the research and discoveries are pretty remarkable.  one thing they have been especially interested in is the ears ability to heal (relatively speaking) under certain conditions.  although, the research has noted, this takes an extreme amoutn of time, as of now.

i've read a bit of research done on hearing inside of an anochoic chamber.  the thought was that the ear has the ability to "compress" so to speak.  that if given a truly quiet (complete absence of sound) environment, the ear would relax and begin to hear things at very low levels.  the research showed that some test subjects were claiming to hear their own heart beat after a few hours in the chamber.  granted, the majority of that is bone resonance, it's still pretty interesting research.



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Carnac

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Re: tinnittus
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2004, 01:39:30 PM »

 one thing they have been especially interested in is the ears ability to heal (relatively speaking) under certain conditions. although, the research has noted, this takes an extreme amoutn of time, as of now.

This is where fasting makes it's mark (as in... speeds up the healing process). Not that anybody is seriously gonna consider taking the time to experience one. Rolling Eyes
that if given a truly quiet (complete absence of sound) environment, the ear would relax and begin to hear things at very low levels. the research showed that some test subjects were claiming to hear their own heart beat 

Neurosensory adaptation is what is being experienced here. Just like how your hearing is much more sensitive on first arising in the morning. It adapts to a lower threshold.
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Cory

j.hall

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2004, 05:07:59 PM »

i've been thinking about the fasting thing for various reasons

it's just really impractical to daily life.....

if i do it, i have to keep thinking and planning on how i'll pull it off

can't i do a liquid diet of beer?
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Carnac

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2004, 07:49:43 PM »

can't i do a liquid diet of beer?

You'd better add pretzels or you may go into toxic shock.
Seriously, I know about the impracticality of a fasting and daily doings. Fasting means 'to abstain from'. Meaning all things, like noise and extraneous activities. Fasting starts to dig deep after a few days when all the glycogen is used up and the process really starts to unfold. Not dangerous per se but competent supervision is advised. The after fast lifestyle is extremely important to maximize benefits obtained during the fast and continued healthy regeneration thereafter. One can literally make a whole new start this way without the short staggered gains achieved through just lifestyle changes over a long period of time.
http://www.healthpromoting.com/Home/home.htm
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Cory

Family Hoof

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2004, 02:35:42 AM »

lucey wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 17:59

there is one method for repair, although how much is up to you ... told to me by a hearing aid clinician

classical music/new age, low level, while you sleep {SNIP}



Great thread! EVERYONE can relate to this topic. My scenario:

I'm pretty young compared to most here but I do have some ringing and loss that I'm quite conscious of. The tones vary greatly when they do happen. Sometimes it's multiples with some pretty low mid freqs, sometimes just a single one in the teenkHz. They come and go with stress, exposure to loud sounds, etc. What is there all the time, however, sounds more like white noise. I only hear it when I've got earplugs in or it happens to be extremely quiet. The only time it went away recently (only for a few hours) was when I awoke from sleeping with some yellow foam earplugs (amigo type) in. Granted, I find it odd that you say working my ears while I sleep would help repair instead of giving them a break. Makes sense though. I don't go to concerts anymore because of the FOH levels being above the threshold of pain and try to wear earplugs every time I go out (in NYC) or encounter loud sounds. Although too much earplug wearing causes hyperwhatchmacallits where clapping makes me keel over with hands to the ears.

I'm hoping to see a top notch audiologist pretty soon since I've learned second hand from a vestibular therapist of some inner ear problems being responsible for visual disorders and other stuff. I used to have a lot of ear infections and my ears are fairly congested most of the time. I also have weird visual/reading problems. Connection? I've ruled out the other possible causes.

Like all who posted, my hearing problems do not get in the way of my work. I tell all my musician friends that it's not the ears so much as how you use them. You train you're hearing (your perception) when you're learning to record + mix, even if it's inadvertent. I like to think that I'm training my ears every time I listen to music, and that as I get older and my hearing deteriorates even more I will continue to compensate with increasingly sophisticated perception.
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ted nightshade

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2004, 10:01:36 PM »

It's so true, without listening, hearing ain't much.

But my ear troubles do get in the way of working- when my ears shut down (fill with wax) after some obnoxious too-loud exposure, sometimes I can't hear properly for a week or two! Yikes.
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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Buzz

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2004, 07:01:24 PM »

I'm really suprized that more has not been said about testing of your freq. response , I would think that htis would be critical for someone who makes a living in music ??? , as stated before the typical test does'nt go above 8k , my understanding is that most losses occour first in the upper registers.

I've done some sweep tests in my studio just to check to see what my upper range was ( about 18k ) this was at 0db sweep , I guess this could be a quick and dirty upper register test ???? ( and yes my monitors are good to 22k )

My understanding is that in England pro-engineers used to have to be certified as far as thier hearing was concerned ( I don't know for sure if this is true anybody who can say for sure it would be nice to know )

Later
Buzz

PS: very good thread I think this topic is overlooked by to many sound engineers

Perfect example : San Diego , night club , Reggea band , EXcrusiating levels so MUCH top end I had to leave , and of coarse the engineer would not let ANYONE tell him what to do or take anysuggestions this guys ears were BLOWN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PP

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2004, 08:05:54 PM »

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Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)

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Re: needed forum- hearing issues!
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2004, 01:14:00 PM »

I'm lucky... back in college I developed a bit of ringing from doing bar sound, but after I quit it faded away.  These days I think I've still got most of my hearing intact, and I'm very protective of it (the custom earplugs, etc).

I don't think there's any one solution to hearing problems, because there's no single cause of problems.  Certainly clearing up any other health issues is the best place to start.
I do some electronics repairs, and one of my rules of thumb is "start by fixing what you know is broken".  So instead of trying to figure out some really weird little thing, I'll first exhaust all the obvious stuff (swollen caps, burnt resistors) and then see if that problem is still there.  Usually it's gone.
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