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Author Topic: JBL 6300+4300 monitor mayhem  (Read 6793 times)

franman

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Re: JBL 6300+4300 monitor mayhem
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2007, 11:33:24 pm »

I'm gonna chime in a little late on this thread. I read through all of your thoughtful comments and a couple of observations from our side of the trenches:

1. We use room eq fairly regularly... let's face it, a crossover is a series of equaliziers. We often take up three or four bands of eq to 'create' a proper cross over slope for our systems, so technically a factory tested setup on Griffin monitors alreayd is "eq'd"...

2. We agree whole heartedly that equalizing for comb filtering caused by early reflections is a loosing cause..

3. Larger boundary and modal issues that cover a reasonably large range (1-2 feet) around the mix positions are candidates for cut only eq.... You can absolutely lower modal ringing as it is percieved at the mix position by lowering the output from the system (and yes, changing the linearity of the system) with some cut eq// Remember the "System" is comprised of the wire, amplifiers, crossover, loudspeakers AND the room!!

Sometimes there are valid and practical fixes that can be made to improve a control room's response. Sometimes there are not! this is just a fact of space available, budget, practical construction variables and client resistance...

4. I am NOT a fan of room equalization, but given the fact that modern DSP controller units like the BSS Soundweb London, DBX Driverack and Lake processors all offer crossover functions, micro delay adjustments, multiple bands of eq and limting, we feel that if we can tweek the system "in place" to make it more linear as a COMPLETE system (and the mix position) with reasonable restraints, then we will do it. The limits of how much eq and how it is applied are all based on experience and common sense with understanding of what is CAUSING some of the non-linearity in the final response. Remember, it is the acoustic response that the engineer hears that he bases his mix decisions on!!

so, I guess I fall in the middle hear. Ideally I'd prefer to do NO room eq, but the nature of (our) crossover designs includes so much "eq" to make a proper acoustic crossover response, that it's already in there... Lars can speak to this more elegantly that I, but he and I typically agree on what mix position anomolies are candidates for eq and what ones are not.

As far as the Auto Adjusting DSP systems from JBL , Genelec and others, we have some limited experience with them. What I can tell you is that the last Genelec 8050D surround system we setup in a room of our design, sounded more 'musical' than any I've setup recently AFTER the autocal... so, subjectively I have to say I like what it did. The autocal does very little above 2K (I think) and it mostly 'corrects' lower octave issues. You can also make multiple measurements at multiple locations and 'average' them if you feel this is valid...

"accurate respone anywhere"??? no way... not possible IMHO...

I just believe there is room for this technology to work hand in hand with proper trapping, reflection control and room design. There is ABSOLUTELY no substitute for proper room proportions, speaker placement and lots of broadband trapping!! that's my soapbox and has been for years!! I'll be talking about this next week at the TOC (I'm covering easy DIY basetrap designs for the masses)... and we believe you can never have too much of it!!

Anyway, there it is, I've chimed in and probably disagreed with many (on the eq/DSP issue) but this is our real world experience along with the theoretical considerations weighed in there.... I don't know, but I think there is room for the technology...
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jimmyjazz

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Re: JBL 6300+4300 monitor mayhem
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2007, 10:33:41 am »

Great post, Fran.  In my opinion, it makes perfect sense to attack the room issues and monitor placement first.  Assuming the monitors are "good", this should minimize the amount of tweaking that would be necessary to further bring the whole signal chain (inluding the room) in line.
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Ethan Winer

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Re: JBL 6300+4300 monitor mayhem
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2007, 01:02:22 pm »

Fran,

I too agree your post sums it up well. My objection is not to the use of any EQ, and I've already explained I use it (one band, cut only) in my living room HT system. What I object to are the magic claims like JBL's "Analyze and correct the problems in any room" and even worse from Audyssey.

Also, most of my customers probably have smaller rooms than your customers. Laughing Smaller rooms tend not to respond as well to EQ as larger rooms where the reflecting surfaces are farther away so the reflections are weaker and not as damaging.

--Ethan

Bill Mueller

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Re: JBL 6300+4300 monitor mayhem
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2007, 12:36:25 pm »

Francis,

Thanks for clarifying your position on this topic.

franman wrote on Thu, 31 May 2007 23:33



1. We use room eq fairly regularly... let's face it, a crossover is a series of equaliziers. We often take up three or four bands of eq to 'create' a proper cross over slope for our systems, so technically a factory tested setup on Griffin monitors alreayd is "eq'd"...


I began this thread with a description of my cheap but relatively effectively method of eq'ing control room monitors, so I don't disagree that eq in and of itself is bad. However, the "good" kind of eq IMO is that which brings a non linear monitor closer to linear response, or to contour speakers to a particular curve, not corrections to room anomalies.

Quote:


2. We agree whole heartedly that equalizing for comb filtering caused by early reflections is a loosing cause..


Agreed.


Quote:


3. Larger boundary and modal issues that cover a reasonably large range (1-2 feet) around the mix positions are candidates for cut only eq.... You can absolutely lower modal ringing as it is percieved at the mix position by lowering the output from the system (and yes, changing the linearity of the system) with some cut eq// Remember the "System" is comprised of the wire, amplifiers, crossover, loudspeakers AND the room!!


However, modal ringing is just as often the cause of massive DIPS in response. Do you then ADD 20DB of gain to a narrow band?

I agree that control room design must take into account all of the elements, I don't see why you would attempt to change system response by eq'ing an inferior room any more than you would find massive eq on an inferior speaker cabinet acceptable.

Quote:


Sometimes there are valid and practical fixes that can be made to improve a control room's response. Sometimes there are not! this is just a fact of space available, budget, practical construction variables and client resistance...


My question is, is the JBL DSP advertising misleading? The idea that you can just drop a pair of speakers into a room, push a button and achieve instant acoustic nirvana is a bit too much IMO.

Quote:


4. I am NOT a fan of room equalization, but given the fact that modern DSP controller units like the BSS Soundweb London, DBX Driverack and Lake processors all offer crossover functions, micro delay adjustments, multiple bands of eq and limting, we feel that if we can tweek the system "in place" to make it more linear as a COMPLETE system (and the mix position) with reasonable restraints, then we will do it. The limits of how much eq and how it is applied are all based on experience and common sense with understanding of what is CAUSING some of the non-linearity in the final response. Remember, it is the acoustic response that the engineer hears that he bases his mix decisions on!!


So I take it that my original premise that creating a non linear monitor, in response to a non linear room, does not in your opinion create the potential for a non linear mix.

Quote:


so, I guess I fall in the middle hear. Ideally I'd prefer to do NO room eq, but the nature of (our) crossover designs includes so much "eq" to make a proper acoustic crossover response, that it's already in there... Lars can speak to this more elegantly that I, but he and I typically agree on what mix position anomolies are candidates for eq and what ones are not.

As far as the Auto Adjusting DSP systems from JBL , Genelec and others, we have some limited experience with them. What I can tell you is that the last Genelec 8050D surround system we setup in a room of our design, sounded more 'musical' than any I've setup recently AFTER the autocal... so, subjectively I have to say I like what it did. The autocal does very little above 2K (I think) and it mostly 'corrects' lower octave issues. You can also make multiple measurements at multiple locations and 'average' them if you feel this is valid...


I totally agree that eq can make a speaker/room system more subjectively PLEASANT to listen to, but that is not my argument. I want to know if it improves the MIX that results from that combination or does it mask the warts on the tape.

Quote:

 
"accurate respone anywhere"??? no way... not possible IMHO...

I just believe there is room for this technology to work hand in hand with proper trapping, reflection control and room design. There is ABSOLUTELY no substitute for proper room proportions, speaker placement and lots of broadband trapping!! that's my soapbox and has been for years!! I'll be talking about this next week at the TOC (I'm covering easy DIY basetrap designs for the masses)... and we believe you can never have too much of it!!


Absolutely.

Quote:

 Anyway, there it is, I've chimed in and probably disagreed with many (on the eq/DSP issue) but this is our real world experience along with the theoretical considerations weighed in there.... I don't know, but I think there is room for the technology...


Thanks for your insight!

Best Regards,

Bill
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franman

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Re: JBL 6300+4300 monitor mayhem
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2007, 10:12:51 pm »

final response Bill... you are trying to create a linear "system" so that you can judge your mixes... this is not a bad thing as long as you don't go 'chasing' low freq dips (which we generally do not try and raise) or making other eq 'mistakes'...

Eq'ing "refernce" monitors is a touchy subject... I think I put my opinions on the line with the long post, but I think if you do things carefully, you can make a more accurate system to judge your mixes! This is NOT a bad thing as long as you don't screw it up!! LOL Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil
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franman

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Re: JBL 6300+4300 monitor mayhem
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2007, 10:15:40 pm »

in case you can't tell... I'm not gonna bad mouth any of these manfucturers other than to say, caveat emptor.. you're all smart guys.. don't think that any of these companies have invented a magic loudspeaker, ok!
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donnybrandy

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Re: JBL 6300+4300 monitor mayhem
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2008, 07:32:42 pm »

Hi Guys!

Thats my first reply on this amazing and informing Board! i didn't ever get so much useful information on room-acoustics and enthusiastic audio-stuff on any other place on the net!
I don´t write much in English so sorry for all mistakes:) Im from Austria!

the reason of replying are my speakers:) i own the jbl LSR4328P for over 1 year now. I used them in 4 different locations and in the last location for 5 months now. All of these were small and mid-sized rooms. One Room had nice hight and all the others had normal ceiling-hight.

the speaker itself is very nice and i had no problem liking them. The RMC-Function was my first experience with eq-correction of speakers. i already built wooden Membran-helmholtz-Absorbers, tried alot and measured some rooms.

I think the RMC changes alot in a very positive way. it is an extremely easy but very limited way of eqing. you cant really make it worse. but you feel it getting better. It is only one EQ with normally very hi Q. so it gets rid of the baddest stuff in the room.

one very funny thing is, that if you turn the rmc off it feels like the chosen frequency is not only normal but pushed a bit to let the customer hear the frequency better. This is awfully stupid, cause you cant really turn it off. If i turn the volume on max with RMC on there is absolutely no noise. If i turn it off You hear noise at the chosen frequency. wow thats magic!

I tried arc the last 2 weeks (i work in a music shop and the distributor sent me a sample) and i get pretty confused with it.
to my ears it does far too much! it cuts everywhere to get a straight line and you cant control what it does.

The JBL´s with 3-5 EQs would the perfect choice. Only One Frequency is not a hell of a lot.
But I would really prefer to have 17 Mondo´s to get rt60 clear and then work abit with eqs in the low region.

Thank you Ethan... you really accompanied me on the lesson of roomacoustics!


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andrebrito

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Re: JBL 6300+4300 monitor mayhem
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2008, 09:18:48 pm »

There's an interesting AES paper for an Electronic Bass Trap if someone is interested.. can't remember the issue, seems to work ok.

Like the others I prefer to use EQ after the room is treated.
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