Topic: trident 80-5.1 (Read 9126 times)

andshesbuyingastairway · « **on:** May 23, 2007, 07:49:21 PM »

what is the deal with this 'reissue,' a few people i've talked to don't prefer it or don't believe it comes close to the original. people trust the reissued neve's more, why not this one?

ssltech · « **Reply #1 on:** May 23, 2007, 09:47:10 PM »

Oh no. It's vastly improved. These people are misinformed. The original Series 80 used flax-spun insulation on the patchbay wiring, which limited the propagation velocity on an otherwise fine console.

The newer version has addressed this problem, and added 3.1 more buses.

In addition, it won't need recapping for a while.

If you're worried about whether you'd regret owning one, I say:

"Buy one. You probably won't."

Wait.... -wrong order. -I meant:

"you probably won't buy one".

Seriously. This is the wrong forum.

Go ask elsewhere for opinions on how stuff sounds. This is the "my stuff is not working right... what approach do you suggest" forum.

Keith

andshesbuyingastairway · « **Reply #2 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:23:18 PM »

thanks for the advice. i wasn't asking about how it sounds, i meant the circuitry. but how it sounds is obviously important.

i actually assumed that it was close to the original. just wanted a second opinion.

oh that's what this forum is? my mistake, i didn't know where else to talk to people about what's inside the units.

can moving fader automation be installed on these tridents?

ssltech · « **Reply #3 on:** May 24, 2007, 08:48:51 AM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote

can moving fader automation be installed on these tridents?

What's your budget?

sodderboy · « **Reply #4 on:** May 24, 2007, 10:15:10 AM »

Not to horn-in here, but while you are at it, think of a budget to have some whale blubber lamps installed in your studio. The old-world ambience will enhance the musical creativity process more than any piece of equipment.

The fader automation is one of the last thing abandoned on most consoles in favor of the DAW, before the pre's, the EQ's, and lastly the analog summing buss.
First it was the gates. Not necessary to gate a noise floor of -90 something dB.
Then the cuts automation. Easier in the box.
Then the automated rides. Same as above.
More than half the engineers I encounter are ready and willing to sum in the box as well. They work their craft at consoles larger than 56 inputs with less than 40 faders used; all set at unity. If they did'nt use EQ and some small fader adjustments requiring Total Recall, they would bag the computer side of the console altogether.
An automation install would cost almost as much as a vintage 80 Series, even more if it is in bad condition.
Mike

J.J. Blair · « **Reply #5 on:** May 24, 2007, 10:16:13 AM »

And more importantly, can automation with point to point wiring be installed?

Rolling Eyes

sodderboy · « **Reply #6 on:** May 24, 2007, 10:21:27 AM »

Necam 1 had that ferrite core memory thang goin' on. A good sales person could sell that as PTP.

andshesbuyingastairway · « **Reply #7 on:** May 24, 2007, 05:14:09 PM »

last i heard you could get a used GML or the like for 15k

iCombs · « **Reply #8 on:** May 24, 2007, 05:22:11 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 24 May 2007 09:16

And more importantly, can automation with point to point wiring be installed?

Rolling Eyes

*BA-ZING!*

I want to see hand-wired tube automation. The distortions in the movement make it more musical, for sure. The computer, too.

sodderboy · « **Reply #9 on:** May 24, 2007, 06:20:28 PM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:14

last i heard you could get a used GML or the like for 15k

And spend at least half that much fitting it into a console- for what? A 30 year old console with moving fader automation run by a 8086 processor running IDRIS? Freakin' IDRIS*? For a trust fund indulgence to "see if it can be done" I can see success. For a business model with a positive cash flow as the goal, I also see success, but only for the company doing the retrofit. And DIY? Right!

*I Don't Recommend It Sir

Mike

andshesbuyingastairway · « **Reply #10 on:** May 24, 2007, 08:51:34 PM »

is that what GML runs on; IDRIS? older systems aren't as a general rule that bad; manley uses some for their design purposes and steve albini i think uses one.

J.J. Blair · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2007, 12:57:47 AM »

I'm bummed that Uptown is not around anymore.

ssltech · « **Reply #12 on:** May 25, 2007, 04:33:14 PM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Thu, 24 May 2007 20:51

older systems aren't as a general rule that bad.

there you have it.

We need to be asking THIS guy for answers.

I have an old NECAM system to sell you.

You're welcome to the f*cking headache.

Keith

Larrchild · « **Reply #13 on:** May 25, 2007, 04:58:54 PM »

I would argue with Nigel Toates constantly about this.
I would say Necam was a pile of shit.
He would say It wasn't. =)

The day I installed the Flyin Faders, the freakin heavens parted.
Stay in the 90's.

ssltech · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2007, 10:04:39 PM »

Nigel!

-Well... he's pimping mackie now... wossat tel ya?

He was a good man if you were on his team at AMS/Neve. Looked after his underlings fiercely by all accounts.

However, Neve never made a good automation system... haven't tried 'Non-core' yet...

NECAM: Never Ever Could Automate Musically...

Necam 96... 96th attempt and still not there...

Keef

Larrchild · « **Reply #15 on:** May 25, 2007, 10:53:18 PM »

I was once told that the coders for Necam 96 did the BART rapid transit system in S.F.
And that it went berserk and a BART car in the garage all weekend with people in them, lol.

Could be hearsay, but I'm inclined to believe there is a grain of truth there. Laughing

andshesbuyingastairway · « **Reply #16 on:** May 26, 2007, 01:39:11 AM »

you're right, let's take advice from you instead

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/images/chandlerpreamp. l.jpg

anyone know if helios or MCI were also handwired?

Larrchild · « **Reply #17 on:** May 26, 2007, 02:07:47 AM »

Yes, hands were involved.

J.J. Blair · « **Reply #18 on:** May 26, 2007, 03:59:53 AM »

"Hand wired" does not mean "point to point."

Dave Hecht · « **Reply #19 on:** May 26, 2007, 04:04:23 AM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Fri, 25 May 2007 22:39

you're right, let's take advice from you instead

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/images/chandlerpreamp. l.jpg

anyone know if helios or MCI were also handwired?

Enough already. No large scale console was wired point to point. Front panel pots and switches were often hand wired, but the rest of the circuits were pc board.

As for who we should be taking advice from here, most of the guys who've replied to you have repeatedly demonstrated their knowledge and experience here. Your questions and replies on the other hand, demonstrate either a desire to bust balls, or a serious obsession with audio myths.

Dave Hecht

Dave Hecht · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2007, 04:08:22 AM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 00:59

"Hand wired" does not mean "point to point."

J.J.'s right. Just to add to that, a large portion of what's marketed as point to point isn't. Most boutique guitar amps (for example) advertised as point to point are actually built on turret board. True point to point is what you'd find in an old LA2A for example. Caps, resistors and wires soldered directly to tube sockets, transformers and other components.

Dave Hecht

Andy Peters · « **Reply #21 on:** May 26, 2007, 04:12:11 AM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Fri, 25 May 2007 22:39

you're right, let's take advice from you instead

Funny, that looks like it's a PCB with discrete wires going to the controls.

Yep, a PCB.

-a

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/images/chandlerpreamp.l.jpg

Larrchild · « **Reply #22 on:** May 26, 2007, 06:27:30 AM »

Handwire means you don't use a loader to stuff parts, you don't use a wave solderer to solder the connections and you don't use a saw to cut the leads off.

andshesbuyingastairway · « **Reply #23 on:** May 26, 2007, 04:28:07 PM »

that is a turret the only thing printed on that is the chandler logo

i still don't see how me asking questions about the topology of gear is me selling myself to audio myths

dave you're technically right but turret is plenty close enough and still allows for the same electrical nature

J.J. Blair · « **Reply #24 on:** May 26, 2007, 04:34:59 PM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 13:28

that is a turret the only thing printed on that is the chandler logo

What drugs are you taking? You can clearly see the traces. And the Chandler Logo is made by screening the conductive material. It's a rather interesting way of doing a PCB, where the whole board is covered, with small channels to separate the various paths, rather than printed the paths itself. More expensive, and likely better sounding with excellent ground characteristics, but still a PCB.

I'm assuming it's double sided. I wonder if the other side is done in the same matter.

johnR · « **Reply #25 on:** May 26, 2007, 04:41:00 PM »

They've left most of the copper on the PCB. It's probably a ground plane. It's a good way of cutting down on stray coupling between circuit elements, as long as the extra capacitance to ground isn't a problem. This method is probably used here for the technical advantages, but it can be cheaper to manufacture too (less copper needs to be removed).

andshesbuyingastairway · « **Reply #26 on:** May 26, 2007, 04:49:03 PM »

the traces? some of them aren't even straight lines.

the one at the bottom right is the best example, no way that was done by a computer

johnR · « **Reply #27 on:** May 26, 2007, 04:54:17 PM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 21:28

i still don't see how me asking questions about the topology of gear is me selling myself to audio myths

It's not so much your questions, it's the way you reject answers from people more knowledgeable and experienced than yourself, in favour of "received wisdom" perpetuated by idiots. Are you familiar with the story of the emperor's new clothes?

johnR · « **Reply #28 on:** May 26, 2007, 04:55:42 PM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 21:49

the traces? some of them aren't even straight lines.

the one at the bottom right

Who said traces have to be straight?

This has got to be a deliberate wind-up.

johnR · « **Reply #29 on:** May 26, 2007, 05:01:08 PM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 21:49

the one at the bottom right is the best example, no way that was done by a computer

PCBs haven't always been designed by computer. The art work used to be hand drawn (and no, that doesn't make it sound different).

I've designed plenty of PCBs with curved traces, both by hand and on computer.

andshesbuyingastairway · « **Reply #30 on:** May 26, 2007, 05:03:16 PM »

i didn't

in any case that particular trace could have been done with a ruler like the others even if it was hand drawn, why didn't they? was this PC board hand drawn?

johnR · « **Reply #31 on:** May 26, 2007, 05:34:39 PM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 22:03

i didn't

in any case that particular trace could have been done with a ruler like the others even if it was hand drawn, why didn't they? was this PC board hand drawn?

Has it occurred to you that the trace may meander slightly to avoid stray capacitive coupling with something on the other side of that double sided board? Or maybe it was hand drawn (with pen or mouse, it doesn't matter) because that was the quickest way to get it at the right angle. Who knows, apart from the designer? I can assure you that perfectly straight lines on PCBs are not a prerequisite for good sound.

Now I'm going to go and swallow a bottle of whisky.

Dave Hecht · « **Reply #32 on:** May 26, 2007, 05:50:07 PM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 13:28

that is a turret the only thing printed on that is the chandler logo

i still don't see how me asking questions about the topology of gear is me selling myself to audio myths

dave you're technically right but turret is plenty close enough and still allows for the same electrical nature

That is DEFINITELY NOT TURRET construction. It is DEFINITELY A PC BOARD.

Asking questions is not the issue. Constantly challenging the answers given by far more experienced people(and the way you challenge them)is. Your questions don't appear as an interest in learning about circuit topology, they come across as an obsession.

As for turret board construction, no it is not close enough to be considered point to point. Either it's point to point or it isn't. And what electrical nature do they share that can't be done on a pc board?

The key to good sounding, reliable gear is not point to point wiring. It's good design, good layout, high quality components and construction. The specific methods and components don't guarantee either good or bad gear.

Dave Hecht

J.J. Blair · « **Reply #33 on:** May 26, 2007, 06:06:36 PM »

Alex, are you related to Andy Simpson?

Tomas Danko · « **Reply #34 on:** May 26, 2007, 06:10:51 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 23:06

Alex, are you related to Andy Simpson?

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/5133/omfg7794259yx.jpg

On a more serious note, someone should really clean up this place lately. This is not Gearslutz, and it will not become the same.

http://www.mninter.net/~richard/Please%20do%20not%20feed%20the%20trolls.jpg

Dave Hecht · « **Reply #35 on:** May 26, 2007, 06:20:13 PM »

[quote title=Tomas Danko wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 15:10

On a more serious note, someone should really clean up this place lately. This is not Gearslutz, and it will not become the same.

Tomas,

Already being looked into.
Dave Hecht

andshesbuyingastairway · « **Reply #36 on:** May 26, 2007, 06:53:40 PM »

no it's alright i trust you and i'm sorry if it seems that i am questioning superiority i just want to find the truth, i was wrong if you say with a definitive answer that it's PC.

what about the ampex 350/351's or say the telefunken V72, were those turret (or true PTP even)?

and also when you mentioned the old LA-2A's what years are you referring to, basically before it was in the hands of urei? the designs now use turret then?

was the original TG double sided PCB and are you certain helios and mci were also PCB?

if you guys can help clarify what is and what isn't marketing then by all means i'm listening, there are various things that even some pro audio people seem passionate about, the 1176 for example or a lot of vintage microphones.

i believe one inescapable trait of PTP wiring via turret or true wiring is large capacitors, is that incorrect?

Larrchild · « **Reply #37 on:** May 26, 2007, 07:13:56 PM »

It's not incorrect to not say that the size of the capacitors is relevant. What isn't the reason you get this?

J.J. Blair · « **Reply #38 on:** May 26, 2007, 08:38:46 PM »

Alex, it doesn't fucking matter if it's PCB or not. Neve 1073s are PCB, APIs are PCB. Circuit boards are not inherently evil. If they are made properly, they are just fine. Just give it up already.

andshesbuyingastairway · « **Reply #39 on:** May 26, 2007, 09:19:55 PM »

when did i ever say they were? it does matter though. there is a difference. i'm just asking what pieces of gear have what kind of foundational circuitry, no reason to get your panties in a wad

we all know the benefits of each type of circuitry there's no reason to take sides. i'm simply investigating what is what. once again i apologize to keith for jumping the gun on saying he was wrong. i will not do this in the future when a definitive answer is provided.

Dave Hecht · « **Reply #40 on:** May 26, 2007, 09:39:12 PM »

andshesbuyingastairway wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 18:19

when did i ever say they were? it does matter though. there is a difference. i'm just asking what pieces of gear have what kind of foundational circuitry, no reason to get your panties in a wad

You've been told repeatedly that pc board vs point to point doesn't matter. Yet you want to continue going in circles about this. It's beyond the point of being ridiculous. If you want to find out what type on construction is used in a specific piece, internet search engines are a wonderful thing. As for this thread, it's pointless to keep it going any longer. I'm locking it.

Dave Hecht

bblackwood · « **Reply #41 on:** May 27, 2007, 08:54:48 AM »

andshesbuyingastairway won't be posting on this forum for a while.

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Author Topic: trident 80-5.1 (Read 9126 times)