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Author Topic: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."  (Read 2839 times)

rollmottle

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yeah, instead we'd rather just be a failure on a daily basis until further notice...

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J.J. Blair

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2007, 10:38:11 pm »

I think some of the Republicans are calling it the "surrender date" or something like that.
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

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"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Jay Kadis

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2007, 11:23:29 am »

It's a way of diverting attention from the fact that failure was pre-ordained by the decision to undertake the mission in the first place.

This exact outcome was predicted by many who were simply shouted down.

Die BREMSSPUR

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2007, 11:35:44 am »

Jay Kadis wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 17:23

It's a way of diverting attention from the fact that failure was pre-ordained by the decision to undertake the mission in the first place.

This exact outcome was predicted by many who were simply shouted down.



What exactly is the outcome?

lemme nough...

tik
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J.J. Blair

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2007, 01:45:55 pm »

The Scientologists are going to run Iraq.  That's the outcome.  The Iraqis will become operational Thetans.
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Die BREMSSPUR

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2007, 02:01:40 pm »

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 19:45

The Scientologists are going to run Iraq.  That's the outcome.  The Iraqis will become operational Thetans.



LOL...

This explains the lack of german involvement...

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Jay Kadis

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2007, 02:04:35 pm »

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 08:35

Jay Kadis wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 17:23

It's a way of diverting attention from the fact that failure was pre-ordained by the decision to undertake the mission in the first place.

This exact outcome was predicted by many who were simply shouted down.



What exactly is the outcome?

lemme nough...

tik


1. Unrestrained sectarian violence

2. Destroyed infrastructure (electricity, water)

3. New base of operations for "terror" networks

4. Break-up of Iraq into Sunni, Shiite, Kurd nations

5. Reduction of general Iraqi standard of living

No matter the ultimate resolution of the above, by what right does the United States inflict this on the people of Iraq?

Die BREMSSPUR

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2007, 02:43:37 pm »

First off, let me say that the reason I asked was to get your opinion.  By listening to your view I can perhaps have a better outlook on this, since it is so important to me.

So although I am totally against your point of view, maybe we can both get something out of this.

I am also horrified by the whole undertaking...butt...

Points 1 and 2.
I would add that we did the same thing to Holland and parts of France.

I am not sure that years of tyranny equate to not having a shower for a while.

I would also say that the violence could be very restrained.  This is not quantifiable.  And the Kurds are way better off.  I don't know this but I have heard that the violence is limited to the capital and some other areas.

3.  From a terrorist perspective I would not call being surrounded by marines and coalition air power an optimum place for a new base.

4. Right on

5. Well you can't make an omelet...

Hmmm...reduction of the standard of living...

I really think this is bullshit.  OK in Baghdad where the strong lived high on the hog...but I saw nothing but the most horrible crushing poverty throughout the country.  People living in holes in the ground and people with just one set of clothes.

I can't believe that they are down to just half a set of clothes....

I can instantly tell by your tone that you are a thoughtful and intelligent type...yada yada yada...

But it still doesn't make you immune from repeating false information and bullshit rife with blind agenda, or have you been there, if so my mistake?

I am repulsed by so much of the opinion on this subject and heartbroken that we were too stupid from the beginning and lack the imagination today for a better outcome.  Better meaning...better...



Would like to be more thorough butt...



I am out for pasta...

ciao...

tik



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Die BREMSSPUR

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2007, 02:49:44 pm »

Sorry.

As to your final question.

I believe it is our duty and obligation to go around the world solving problems.

So there you go...

Someone with an opposite view point.

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Jay Kadis

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2007, 04:16:32 pm »

I know you have a different view, but neither of us are Iraqis.  The idea that powerful nations should undertake to "set right" the rest of the world is dangerous.  Where does it stop?  How many innocent people die? Who decides?  Iraq had a high level of education and growing middle class even under Hussein.  

No one argues Hussein was good, but he lacked the ability to expand his power globally or threaten the US directly.  He was a local problem and would have been ignored if he didn't control massive oil fields.  The US simply does not have the right to choose the government for other countries.  Maybe when China decides it's time to "fix" the United States we will understand this. What goes around comes around.

And even if you believe it would be right to depose Hussein, it should have at least been done effectively with sufficient forces to control the aftermath.  It was a slip-shod, on-the-cheap affair and the Iraqi people are paying the price.  This just expresses contempt for the people we were ostensibly trying to help.

Die BREMSSPUR

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2007, 05:30:21 pm »

I totally agree with you last paragraph.

And I understand your reasoning.

And of course it's dangerous to try and do something about the injustice in the world.

It's a sad situation when your shit is so jacked up that the U.S. government has to step in.

You are reduced to Waco status.

Our government collectively supposed it knew what was best for Panama and the Phillipines.  Much later we took a different approach with South Korea.

Why?

Why such a difference?  Certainly it's a extremely strategic outpost.

The optimistic answer would be due to enlightenment.

In any case you make the point for oil.  I think that's bullshit based on too many years of witnessing otherwise, but have had too many wiezens with my pizza...

And I have to drive to Belgium tomorrow and then to AES in Vienna..

And George thinks I'm old so I have to go to bed.

Nice chatting with you....

later

tik
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Jay Kadis

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2007, 06:02:08 pm »

You're right in that it's not all about oil: W also had a vendetta against Saddam for trying to off his dad.

Let us know what's new at the AES.

Barry Hufker

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2007, 06:58:15 pm »

I am sorry.  We can't give you a timetable for the AES convention.  That would embolden the sales people.

Barry
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Steve Hudson

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2007, 01:05:45 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 17:58

I am sorry.  We can't give you a timetable for the AES convention.  That would embolden the sales people.

Barry


LOL!
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ssltech

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2007, 02:44:56 pm »

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 14:49

I believe it is our duty and obligation to go around the world solving problems.

Then Iraq ahould have been WAY down the list.

You were all up for Rwanda then? -Howzabout Darfur?

No. -What was I thinking? -The Bush admin's myopic focus on "Islamic Fascists" means that we have to keep having tea on teh lawn with the Sudanese govt, while they condone and enable the murder of tens of thousands.

Another scone, Tik? -Or are you already on plane to Africa?

Keith
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I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Die BREMSSPUR

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2007, 06:27:34 pm »

ssltech wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 20:44

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 14:49

I believe it is our duty and obligation to go around the world solving problems.

Then Iraq ahould have been WAY down the list.

You were all up for Rwanda then? -Howzabout Darfur?

No. -What was I thinking? -The Bush admin's myopic focus on "Islamic Fascists" means that we have to keep having tea on teh lawn with the Sudanese govt, while they condone and enable the murder of tens of thousands.

Another scone, Tik? -Or are you already on plane to Africa?

Keith


Well,

I spent time supporting a Rwanda mission.

During the genocide.

Butt....

I'm sure you can tell me all about it.

Then you can repeat what you heard on NPR about the U.S. involvement in Rwanda and what choices were made on the ground and in the air.

So...

what's up....

Also,

we all do our part.  Glad you are making it personal.  I am very grateful to this forum for forcing me to focus on social issues...

You wanna call me out?

Let's do it over a bier or on the phone.

Or do you just wanna talk shit?

The texas hat rack has nothing to do with 'merica's performance or the people who make a difference.  I didn't vote for him and I believe my point was to offer another point of view and to challenge people to think.  Not to deride them personally.



Butt yes, I think we should be involved in Darfur.  And everywhere else....

So I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to you for trying to start a music studio during this period of my life.

And when I walk through the woods to the next small village I feel guilty about it every step of the way.

So take your sanctimonius attitude and stick it up your fucking ass <expletive deleted:although I felt this way at the time, after a few biers...well I still feel that way but...>

So to answer your question.

Yeah, I was all up for Rwanda.  And the solution was simple wasn't it?



lemme nough...


tik
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Les Ismore

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2007, 05:29:35 pm »

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 11:49

Sorry.

As to your final question.

I believe it is our duty and obligation to go around the world solving problems.

So there you go...

Someone with an opposite view point.




What an arrogant pile of bile.
Americans are in no position either on a skill level or a moral level to solve anyones problems. They can't even solve thier own problems.

And an awful lot of the world thinks that they are the problem. And more every day thanks to this.

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Die BREMSSPUR

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2007, 12:40:23 pm »

Les Ismore wrote on Sat, 05 May 2007 23:29

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 11:49

Sorry.

As to your final question.

I believe it is our duty and obligation to go around the world solving problems.

So there you go...

Someone with an opposite view point.




What an arrogant pile of bile.
Americans are in no position either on a skill level or a moral level to solve anyones problems. They can't even solve thier own problems.

And an awful lot of the world thinks that they are the problem. And more every day thanks to this.





Yeah,

Most people think I'm arrogant.

Maybe...

If you'd pull your head out of your ass, you could possibly name about fifty or so countries we have helped acquire freedom...

Maybe you can throw a concert about it or something...


In any case...

I hope that my input has helped foster an alternative view.

It is my desire that you guys think.

Then think some more.

I hope that you would be critical about everything you are being fed.

I hope that you would form your opinions based on personal experiences and not "sources"

I hope that you guys cheer up....

good bye...

good luck in everything you do.

tik
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Jay Kadis

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2007, 01:13:36 pm »

Actually, tik has a point: the people of the US are extremely lucky to enjoy such great freedom, wealth and opportunity and we do owe the rest of the world the help they need to achieve similar good fortune.  But we can't do it by force.  There is a history of doing the wrong things for the right reasons and it's time we broke from that tradition.

We should help struggling democracies as best we can, but we cannot create democracies where they are resisted by the very people we seek to help.  We can only lead by example and hope our example is sufficient to motivate others to seek help.  Recently the example is doing the opposite.

Jon Hodgson

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2007, 05:57:56 pm »

Die BREMSSPUR wrote on Sun, 06 May 2007 17:40


Yeah,

Most people think I'm arrogant.

Maybe...

If you'd pull your head out of your ass, you could possibly name about fifty or so countries we have helped acquire freedom...



Oh really? Name them.

You're probably going to name countries liberated in the second world war, well they hardly qualify as examples of some moral crusade, the US was two years late joining the party, Germany declared war on the US, not vice-versa, and in the meantime the US profited from both sides.

Not saying your help wasn't much appreciated when it happened, nor do I mean any disrespect to those who fought and died, just that the image often portrayed of America the wonderful altruistically going to the aid of Europe is rather distorted.

Since then, how many countries have you helped to liberate through force? Off the top of my head I can think of South Korea and Kuwait, both of which were as parts of large coalitions (as was World War 2 in fact).

And more relevantly in this context, how many countries have you helped to liberate by force not from a foreign invader, but from their own government, and which have ended up better than they started?

And how many dictators have you installed or helped keep in power?

What problems have you solved in Iraq?

For the rest of the world, you've taken a country which was no danger to them, and turned it into a terrorist recruitment advert.

For Iraq's immediate neighbours you've increased islamic militancy, making it harder for moderates to influence government and society... notice how Iran, where the moderates were actually getting somewhere, has gone more hardline since the invasion?

As for Iraq itself, you've got rid of a single evil threat (Saddam) but the vaccuum created allowed a bunch of evil threats to get in. So where in the past the people just had to worry about Saddam and co, now if they're too nice to the Sunnis, the Shias will kill them, if they're too nice to the Shias, the Sunnis will kill them, and if they manage to avoid getting killed by both those lots, and to avoid illness and death through the destruction of their infrastructure, then they could end up getting killed by the Americans.

You've talked about the poverty in Iraq, well the main reason for the extreme poverty in Iraq before the invasion was that some bright spark had the idea of imposing trade sanctions on the country. For some reason they thought that the way to get a psychopathic and sociopathic dictator to do what you want him to is to make his people suffer... huh??

Since then what has been done to help? Well the first step was to destroy their infrastructure... erm ok... then to throw away 11 billion of THEIR money (oil revenues that had been held onto by the United Nations and were released to the US on the understanding that they were to be used for the rebuilding of Iraq), which was squandered, embezelled, lost and stolen. The US has also used its position to grant huge rebuilding contracts to US firms.

so if it your duty and obligation to go around the world solving problems, you really need to get a hell of a lot better at your job.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: "Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure."
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2007, 07:33:02 am »

Fuck yeah!

http://www.yourstandardlife.com/images/team-america-world-police-1.jpg

...not that I happen to agree, however. Clean up your shit first, before trying to babysit the world. Kind of.

Noa the lemur, aka "Lemur Noa"
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