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Author Topic: M-S Stereo: Placement Rules And Variations  (Read 22837 times)

J.J. Blair

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M-S Stereo: Placement Rules And Variations
« on: April 22, 2007, 04:34:06 PM »

Quote by Plush:

Quote:

The "EQ" magazine article about M/S recording in the same issue was riddled with serious mistakes of fact and application. Is there ANY editorial oversight at that rag?


Hudson, having not seen the final edited versions of either articles yet, I can't comment on the content.  I don't know what parts were omitted or even changed, as happens sometimes.  I submitted ten pages, and I know they have limited space to work with.  Perhaps some of my not so "strange" questions didn't make it in the final version?  If you have a problem with any of it, the editorial staff would love to hear from you, I'm sure.  

If you feel that any of my M/S article was inaccurate, please feel free to edify me.  You can PM me your corrections, or even better, take issue with it in the Use Your Ears forum, where everybody has a chance to learn from your knowledge.  If I have something wrong, I sure would love to know about it.  

     http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Bo ard/26/page/1
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Plush

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2007, 05:17:53 PM »

Hello JJ---

I can easily see how you could have written a proper article and had it modified out of coherence by an "editor" at "EQ" magazine. I always read "EQ" in 30 minutes or less just to see what is being talked about and what advertisers are saying.
Then I throw away the magazine as I do with all the magazines.

However, through the years, the inaccuracies, the mis speaks, the just plain wrong fly around the magazine each month. In contrast, "Resolution" magazine from S2 pubishers in London, is scrupulously accurate. I think the problem with "EQ" is that the editors sometimes are simply not knowledgeable.
I have already thrown out latest issue of "EQ," but I remember reading the boxed article and wondering--- what ho?  (as Sherlock Holmes used to say, not as a rapper says)

In the M/S article, the description of how to set up an M/S array is described wrongly.  The picture of the mics on the piano where there is an R84 and a Gefell is wrong as well. What is pictured is not an m/s array. The Gefell is pointed down at the strings when it should be pointed towards the back of the piano. The mention of setting up at 90 degrees is only applicable to some mics (ie. 414) and not to the majority.

In any case, I extend my appreciation for your interview with Klaus the mic magician.

   
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Hudson Fair
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2007, 09:08:46 PM »

Plush wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 14:17


In the M/S article, the description of how to set up an M/S array is described wrongly.  The picture of the mics on the piano where there is an R84 and a Gefell is wrong as well. What is pictured is not an m/s array. The Gefell is pointed down at the strings when it should be pointed towards the back of the piano. The mention of setting up at 90 degrees is only applicable to some mics (ie. 414) and not to the majority.


I'm sorry.  I don't follow.  You are saying that an on axis mic panned center and a figure eight mic in the 90˚ off axis position, properly matrixed is not M/S?  I think you are going to have to re-educate every recording engineer I've ever met about proper M/S technique, then.  I think they will have to redesign the SM23, SM69, C24 and Ela M270, as well.

And I think you are looking at the piano picture wrong.  The Gefell capsule is pointed towards the null direction of the ribbon's figure eight.  If I had been using the stereo version of that ribbon mic, the middle would be pointing in the exact same direction.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Gone

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2007, 03:33:44 AM »

Plush wrote on Sun, 22 April 2007 16:17


In the M/S article, the description of how to set up an M/S array is described wrongly.  The picture of the mics on the piano where there is an R84 and a Gefell is wrong as well. What is pictured is not an m/s array. The Gefell is pointed down at the strings when it should be pointed towards the back of the piano. The mention of setting up at 90 degrees is only applicable to some mics (ie. 414) and not to the majority.



Hi Hudson -
I'm confused, too. What's wrong with the Neumann/AEA photo? It looks like an M/S setup to me... Assuming we're not discussing personal preference for where the M/S setup is AIMED.

I will say the description of reversing the phase of one channel  is a little unclear, since it's only mentioned in the "NOTE" section. It makes no mention of which channel to flip - typically the front lobe of the mic is panned left, and the rear panned right and phase reversed (assuming you've aimed the mic that way in your setup).  

Additionally, my understanding has always been that if you raise the output level of the side signals higher than that of the mid, you 'ruin' the resulting stereo image / polar pattern. Certainly, when that happens, you can hear the 'push-pull' of two panned, out of phase signals, rather than their interaction with the mid signal.

Also, the AKG 414 photo isn't as clear because it appears to be aimed at a wall (or is that the back of a piano?) It would have been perhaps more clear in front of an acoustic guitar or something... JJ - did some of that get cut in editing?

Besides the threadjack... I look forward to reading the entire interview. It will certainly be interesting to see what the editors decided to cut!
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Plush

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2007, 09:23:09 AM »

Hello JJ.--

May I foreswear redesigning anything as you suggest?

I have thrown away the magazine, so I cannot refer to it right now.
May I just say this. . .

The Gefell appears to be an end fire mic and is pointed down at the strings of the piano. To be m/s, it should be pointed not down, but straight ahead towards the back of the piano. The axis of pick-up for the R84 is horizontal, not verticle and this is correct. With the Gefell pointed down instead of aimed the same way the R84 body is oriented, you have the Gefell oriented 90 degrees wrongly.

The picture shows something that would be as if you have a figure eight mic pointing at the stage delineating the left/right position and a cardioid pointed at the floor. The cardioid should be in the same plane as the figure eight.  
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Hudson Fair
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2007, 10:50:10 AM »

Quote:

I will say the description of reversing the phase of one channel is a little unclear, since it's only mentioned in the "NOTE" section. It makes no mention of which channel to flip...


Again, not having seen it yet, this doesn't sound like how I wrote it.  Sounds like some editing was done.  What I wrote was: "The figure eight signal is then mult’d to two channels, panned hard left and right, with the right hand side’s phase inverted 180˚."  

As for the M/S situation: Hudson, first off, remember that the figure eight pattern is in three dimensions, not two.  What you are suggesting is that to record the cross section of the strings as I am doing, I should have orientated the R84 vertically.  The R84 is side address, as you well know.  And honestly, it doesn't matter which direction the Gefell is facing as long it's pointing into the off axis null of the figure eight.  But in this particular instance, it is positioned correctly.  And do you know how I know that?  Because the piano images right to left at the cross section of the strings, as I intended.  If the imaging of the R84 were horizontal in this position, as you suggest, there would be no left to right travel when the keyboard is played.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2007, 11:56:09 AM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Mon, 23 April 2007 09:50


Again, not having seen it yet, this doesn't sound like how I wrote it.  Sounds like some editing was done.  What I wrote was: "The figure eight signal is then mult’d to two channels, panned hard left and right, with the right hand side’s phase inverted 180˚."  



Sheesh! Unfortunately, "with the right hand side's phase inverted 180
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Extreme Mixing

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2007, 12:13:54 PM »

I have to agree with JJ on the M/S placement.  It should be fine, since the lobes of the microphones are 3D.  I'm not a fan of M/S micing, but this looks like it's set up properly to me.

Steve

J.J. Blair

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2007, 12:57:18 PM »

I hate having my stuff edited to where the result is me looking like I don't know what I'm talking about.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Plush

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2007, 01:48:45 PM »

I wish I could draw a diagram for you. I am not saying you need to change the position of the R84 mic,  J.J.
Of course the R84 is going to give you a strong left to right image. It is perfectly correct as you say. It is the mid component that is positioned strangely.

I am saying that the correct positioning is to have the Gefell pointing towards the back of the piano, not down to the strings. The Gefell should be positioned along the SAME axis as the R84--like two fingers on top of each other pointing straight ahead.
It should comprise a mid component sound looking AT the piano not down into the strings.
I do not need to continue to discuss this here since there are ample tutorials on m/s technique on the AEA, Schoeps and other web sites.

In any case, my complaint about J.J.'s article or how it was edited is a mild complaint. What is not a mild complaint is how "EQ" magazine consistently extends no knowledgeable editor oversight to the material they publish.    

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Hudson Fair
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Tomas Danko

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2007, 03:53:31 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Mon, 23 April 2007 17:57

I hate having my stuff edited to where the result is me looking like I don't know what I'm talking about.


So who do you blame for the editing of what you write at the REP then?  Twisted Evil


Kidding dude. I just wonder for how much longer you will remain your cool self towards the editor at EQ. They should treat your input with much more care, unless they just want Gearslutz people to buy into the ads and that's it.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2007, 05:55:16 PM »

Isn't this the picture we're discussing?  J.J. had posted this earlier in another thread.


index.php/fa/4934/0/


The fat microphone is omni and the other is an AEA ribbon with Figure 8.  If it works, it works.  I don't see a need for it to face towards the piano's rear.

Personally, I have done M/S with the M microphone some distance forward of the S.  Then I use time delay to make it seem as tho' both mics are in one location.  This works just fine as well.

Barry
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2007, 07:36:19 PM »

Barry, you are correct.  That is the configuration we're discussing.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

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Re: Thanks for an informative, enjoyable interview
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2007, 11:52:35 PM »

Plush wrote on Mon, 23 April 2007 12:48


I am saying that the correct positioning is to have the Gefell pointing towards the back of the piano, not down to the strings. The Gefell should be positioned along the SAME axis as the R84--like two fingers on top of each other pointing straight ahead.
It should comprise a mid component sound looking AT the piano not down into the strings.
I do not need to continue to discuss this here since there are ample tutorials on m/s technique on the AEA, Schoeps and other web sites.



These seem to be two different issues. As far as "where' the M/S setup is aimed, that would seem to be personal choice - ie, I could record a drum set from overhead, or from in front of the kit, for different results - but both using technically correct M/S technique. I don't see why the 'mid' mic of an MS setup shouldn't face the strings - not from a technical standpoint.

What you're saying about the axis (or planes) of the mics, to me, seems to suggest that the 'figure 8' pattern of the AEA mic is different if used horizontally versus vertically. Are you saying, for example, that if he WANTED the mid mic to point at the strings, then the AEA mic should have its top facing the strings, rotated 45
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Gunnar Hellquist

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Re: M-S Stereo: Placement Rules And Variations
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2007, 01:28:13 AM »

I find it a bit odd to introduce the "copy and invert the S-signal" into an article for beginning users of M/S as audience.

I know that is the way you had to do it on an analog mixer, but today just about everyone is using some kind of DAW. Then the first choice would instead be to recommend using a decoding plug-in.

Voxengo MSED is free to download for VST PC if your DAW does not have one. There are probably others for Mac to find as well.

Well, my five cents.

Gunnar
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Gunnar Hellquist
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