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[kats]

Quote:

I am very interested in what Cyril has done, thinking that it would be a good test to find out which owners of Helios Type-69’s choice would be. (Be it Sowter or Beyer TX owners) I have also thought about offering our would be clients a choice of Cyril’s TX or the Sowter, but it seems that Cyril does not want to enter this test other wise he would have replied to my email that I sent requesting the prices allowing me to test some samples which I made it quite clear I would pay for.

I bought one of Cyril's xformers and it is very good. A bit of a tight squeeze to mount, barely doable - but doable none the less.

Sound wise, the main difference is that it is more open in the top end ( a bit of a rise in the upper most frequencies). Not drastically, but noticeable.

I find that my preference between the two transformers varies. For example, I prefer the Sowter when using a c12 mic or when recording electric gtrs where i don't want or need that extra rise etc.

Having said that, if I were forced to pick I would go with Cyrils xformer. I would like to add a caveat because since I only have a single of Cyril's I haven't done any stereo recording with them so my experience isn't 100% as it with with the Sowter versions which I have 8 of and have been using them for years, from classical harp to Marshall amps and I've neve been dissapointed.

I tried to order more of Cyril's but to date have never received a response to my requests.

[Arny]

crosstalk wrote on Sat, 18 September 2010 12:41

The one I tested on YouTube is one of the fourteen Ex-Strawberry-1 X Lustraphone Type-69’s out of the fourteen before they were shipped to VK, nine had this problem and were cured before being dispatched as you and I both know, this hereditary problem can be cured. Tony  if you know how to cure this problem  why don't you post the solution on this forum so it becomes public domain Crosstalk

Out of the nine faulty Strawberry units the problem was often poor earth contacts other times a component, but the main problem was that it could be there but go unnoticed for many sessions until one uses the -60 or –70, and then its too late.

Crosstalk thought I would not have an answer for this problem, which shows a serious lack of thought on his part, he thought that I personally put the fault into the said unit on purpose for the YouTube Test. if that was the case then I would be able to give him a simple single answer of how to cure the oscillation problem, but I can't,  

As this problem is caused by many factures,  the main one being,  very poorly built construction,  partnered up with lousy   type electronic assemblies, and over the years some further lousy soldering carried out by unskilled engineers.  

[Arny]

kats wrote on Sat, 18 September 2010 14:22

Quote: Tony Arnold Helios Electronics Ltd I am very interested in what Cyril has done, thinking that it would be a good test to find out which owners of Helios Type-69’s choice would be. (Be it Sowter or Beyer TX owners) I have also thought about offering our would be clients a choice of Cyril’s TX or the Sowter, but it seems that Cyril does not want to enter this test other wise he would have replied to my email that I sent requesting the prices allowing me to test some samples which I made it quite clear I would pay for. I bought one of Cyril's xformers and it is very good. A bit of a tight squeeze to mount, barely doable - but doable none the less. Sound wise, the main difference is that it is more open in the top end ( a bit of a rise in the upper most frequencies). Not drastically, but noticeable. I find that my preference between the two transformers varies. For example, I prefer the Sowter when using a c12 mic or when recording electric gtrs where i don't want or need that extra rise etc. Having said that, if I were forced to pick I would go with Cyrils xformer. I would like to add a caveat because since I only have a single of Cyril's I haven't done any stereo recording with them so my experience isn't 100% as it with with the Sowter versions which I have 8 of and have been using them for years, from classical harp to Marshall amps and I've neve been dissapointed. I tried to order more of Cyril's but to date have never received a response to my requests.

Dear Tony,
Now there you go I am more than happy to offer Cyril's TX as an alternative but like your good self Tony I have not received a reply for my request either.
I do know another who has tried Cyril’s TX and found certain small improvements but not enough to warrant changing all of his re-issues due to the things he might lose which he likes about the Sowter.
The only thing I can say is that the Lustraphone fades off at 32kHz but the Sowter reissue goes on up to 56kHz, which is supported in Brian Sowter’s Frequency Response Plots.
I will be showing a test on YouTube to demonstrate this issue as well.

So if Cyril’s TX is a perfect clone of the Lustraphone and therefore does not have the extended response that the Sowter has to offer,  then I can’t  understand why you feel that Cyril’s had a bit of a rise in the upper most frequencies unless there is something missing from other frequencies that is giving that impression.
It would also be interesting to know what upper frequencies you were hearing Tony, is it possible for you to carry out a Frequency Response comparison test for us.

By the way if you wish to carry out a test, of updating your Re-Issues to +4dB which has now been introduced into the 500 series Type-69's because of interfacing & matching other units of =4dB which are also used in these racks,

It is just a matter of changing one resistor = R19 from 12k to 6k8.
Are we going to introduce this into the Standard size helios Type-69 in the future, the answer is NO due to obvious reasons, but it will be offered as a free alternitive.

Best Regards

Tony.

[Arny]

CrosstalkHere are some points that I raised which you may have missed so therefore never gave any answers.
#1A
Dave Amels could have saved Cyril a lot of climbing all Cyril had to do was ask. or did Cyril think that the TX Dave recommends is also not up to the mark.
#2A
If you are saying that Sowter has improved the quality of the Helios-Type-69 Transformer over the originals then you must agree that the Audio quality off the re-issue has been improved over the original Lustraphone version
#5A
I find it very strange that the only people who are downing my product are those who also wish to manufacture themselves, or those that dislike me for some reason or other, or they will ask their friends to do the dirty deed,
#6A
I also find it strange that there are many MORE owners of the Beyer Version than of Type-69. who are equally happy as those with a Lustraphone version or a Sowter TX,
#7A
The strangest thing of all is how come there is not one owner of an ORIGINAL Helios, wishes to ever own one again, yet many have purchased the Helios Type-69 re-issue and are now enjoying the sound.

Tony Arnold (Director),
Helios Electronics Ltd,
www.helios electronics.com

[phantom309]

Wow. This thread has seriously taken a completely misguided turn and tone. Again.

Look, it's not complicated. Subjective appreciation of sound is only worth discussing if some objective deduction can be found. In this case, we've only had the Helios listening test at Paul's studio for that kind of empirical result. In that instance, with the exception of the malfunctioning active Strawberry unit, the "Type 69" finished last...everyone rated the Lustraphone equipped module the "best". Unanimous. No wobbling. No hedging. Listening back, those results still stand in MY ear. NOW, meanwhile, we found a couple of things wrong with the modern unit that have since been rectified and people seem quite happy with them. Good for them. Good for VK. Good for Tony. I'm sure they satisfy quite nicely. Shoppers regale.

I have here: The only two completely original Olympic Studio modules, two Beyer equipped Strawberry modules, the restored COMPLETE Strawberry desk w/ Cinemag tx's installed in the EQs, the original Rolling Stones Lustraphone units and the Manor sidecar. They ALL sound great. They ALL sound different: headroom in the desk is better than the RSM, but the RSM units have a flavour that can not be denied. The Manor units (number 2 in the tests) also sound fabulous, but different.

When the folks at Waves asked me for the loan of the RSM modules for their HLS model, I enthusiastically agreed because I knew that they would beat the bushes RAGGED in their tests as they had done with 3 OTHER Helios units from different consoles. I was not disappointed and neither were they or Eddy Kramer in their results. It's different in a recognizable way that they wanted to market. It's recognizable in a way that prompted the ever curious Cyril Jones to follow the rabbit further down the hole with his own tests. He managed quite nicely, I'm happy to report, and we will be using his Lustraphone clones in the current restoration project because it FITS OUR NEED. The graphs don't tell my ears a damned thing no matter what test equipment was used by WHOM.

Listen to as many of the possibilities out there as you can and buy what suits you...no need to join a CLUBHOUSE.

As for "owners of original Helios", I would do it again in an instant. This stuff sounds magnificent when properly repaired and cared for. As Dave Amels said; it's simple straight wire audio done well. Buy one, re-cap and raise the rails to 36v, follow the simple rules for grounding and ohm's law and you're good to go.

[Silvertone]

phantom309 wrote on Mon, 20 September 2010 21:15

Wow. This thread has seriously taken a completely misguided turn and tone. Again. Look, it's not complicated. Subjective appreciation of sound is only worth discussing if some objective deduction can be found. In this case, we've only had the Helios listening test at Paul's studio for that kind of empirical result. In that instance, with the exception of the malfunctioning active Strawberry unit, the "Type 69" finished last...everyone rated the Lustraphone equipped module the "best". Unanimous. No wobbling. No hedging. Listening back, those results still stand in MY ear. NOW, meanwhile, we found a couple of things wrong with the modern unit that have since been rectified and people seem quite happy with them. Good for them. Good for VK. Good for Tony. I'm sure they satisfy quite nicely. Shoppers regale.

This was true 100%.  The Lustraphone X-formers's did win hands down but I was also surprised by the sound of the last console Dick built (Dans modules), We all thought it sounded equally as good but in a different way.

It's also why I couldn't write a damn thing about "the great Helios listening party"... the variations between some of the modules was pretty great... really way too subjective as to which was better than which in some cases (yet easy to hear which was best!). Plus, to try and "describe" in print the different sounds from each module would have been a very confusing read I'm afraid. It was really one of those "you had to be there".

I'm glad I arranged this event but I'm sorry for all the negative twists and turns this post has taken regarding it.  I think if Tony had been there many of the negative things said here would have never materialized.  No one was slamming his product at all (in online "posts" it is hard to hear the "context" in which things are said)... we all felt the EQ's were spot on and we couldn't figure out why the mic pre sounded different (until months later I guess)...  

For me I will never forget that day as it reaffirmed so many thoughts I had over the years about "the sound" of these great consoles and other great consoles of the era. It was an "ear opener" for sure and an event I wish everybody could have attended.

[Arny]

[quote title=Silvertone wrote on Tue, 21 September 2010 06:32]

phantom309 wrote on Mon, 20 September 2010 21:15

Wow. This thread has seriously taken a completely misguided turn and tone. Again.

Dear Larry,
         If you read back at my last few posts at what I tried to write which were answers to questions one being the Strawberry South Console the second being a request from another member "Katz" for a plot of the Lustraphone transformer it took up a lot of both mine and Brian’s time to answer to this request.
Neither is there anything negative about my reply to Tony's (Katz) Post  when he feels that Cyril's TZ sounded fractionally better.

If you  and the Phantom feel that anything in those Posts was negative then please point them out to me, and while you are at it tell what was so positive about "Crosstalks insulting remark.
"May be your old unit requires servicing or is just clapt out Tony!"
That Ungentlemanly sort of remark deserves what it got,  a challenging post as a reply.
Tony's (Katz) Post came from a gentleman who I  have had other small favourable correspondence with but he acted correctly knowing that I would except his findings and not get negative over his findings,  I had requested in an earlier Post for some of my clients to let me know of their experiences with Cyrils Clone.

If you wish to find out the truth about me and how negative I am,  may I suggest that you visit a place where I am respected for what I try to do with my 74 years of experiences as a Producer/Engineer and Technician and that is to pass some of my experiences onto others who are just starting in our industry,

My posts are anything but negative, they are all about  Recording History to repairing or updating an Ampex or even trying to help a member identify & value his old Telefunken Microphone be it somewhere between 1928 to 1956 etc etc.

You might note also that I have refrained from posting many posts in the ARF Helios Forum, so therefore cannot be accused of seeking free advertising as I have been accused of here in a very insulting manor in fact due to my posts popularity with the other ARF members,  I have been told that I can have free advertising including a Banner,   for confirmation please write to the Administrator Mr Bob Buontempo, (Nickname BBTempo). http://www.analogrecordingforums.com/

I never ever wanted a job with a major studio even though I have had some very flattering offers as a Producer/Engineer, I wanted to build a reputation through myself and not because of who I worked for, I built my reputation in my own studio, not through working in a Major Studio where clients came because Elvis or the Beatles or that "Uncle Tom Cobly & All"  recorded there.

As a Technician Richard Swettenham recognised my potential and quickly realised I was the person to continue Helios Electronics Ltd tell me anyone else to whom he asked.
And if Cyril was honest he would also state that he was happy to endorse my handling the servicing & second hand sales of any of the Raindirk Series-3 consoles,  which over a dozen must have past through my hands let alone the amount repairs that I carried out.

Finally I was the one who was asked & appointed to continue parts & servicing by Ampex Europe themselves,  who even financially supported me for 2 years.
I mention all of this with pride as apposed to conceit

Larry you mention
It's also why I couldn't write a damn thing about "the great Helios listening party"
You could write that Paul your host that day, only had four re-issues, today he has 16 and has no plans to change from Sowter to Cyrils or Cinemag’s Transformers.

Larry if I may quote you again
I think if Tony had been there many of the negative things said here would have never materialized.
Here you are a 100% right I would have spotted the problem immediately and then it would have been a different story altogether, remember it was a problem to know how to carry out these tests with the right interface box and it was my design that was used and endorsed as the most favourable.  
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/16023/0/84 8/16753/
and for you own personal comments on this Gizmo Larry go to Link then 13 posts down
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/16023/0/86 4/16753/

Sometimes I have to act like a gentleman when corresponding with a gentleman I do hope that there is nothing I have written here that can cause you any offence.

Best Regards

Tony.
Tony Arnold (Director),
Helios Electronics Ltd,
www.helios electronics.com

[Arny]

[quote title=phantom309 wrote on Mon, 20 September 2010 21:15]
I Quote The Phantom
we found a couple of things wrong with the modern unit that have since been rectified and people seem quite happy with them. Good for them. Good for VK. Good for Tony. I'm sure they satisfy quite nicely. Shoppers regale.

Why does the Phantom not always get the true facts, and then he has to be corrected afterwards  
It had nothing to do with shoppers regale,  the facts are there,  the Helios Re-Issue was tested in unfair conditions, had the event had been in Sport the findings would have been squashed.
What you are stating is a complete insult to the Guy who was nice enough to host the listening tests, someone who does not find me or my reissue to be a problem

Here are the points he raised
I have to say this just for the record.
In all fairness to Tony Arnold, I'm not sure his Reissue Modules got a fare shake during our listening test?
Who knew?
I've found that the New Rack allows for a few more DB's of headroom
(maybe three or four) as compared to my original rack!
I also noticed when a module (in the new rack) is set to it's limit, the setting before distortion happens it also has a warmer, slightly thicker sound then the one in the original rack.


I Quote The Phantom
I have here: The only two completely original Olympic Studio modules, two Beyer equipped Strawberry modules, the restored COMPLETE Strawberry desk w/ Cinemag tx's installed in the EQs, the original Rolling Stones Lustraphone units and the Manor sidecar. They ALL sound great. They ALL sound different: headroom in the desk is better than the RSM, but the RSM units have a flavour that can not be denied. The Manor units (number 2 in the tests) also sound fabulous, but different.

I quote my client (Your Host again.
I most likely agree that the Beyer type-69 might improve if one was to replace the TX with a Cinemag but it would also be improved if one was to fit the Sowter as used in our re-issue.
I am going by this quotation below as well as our own findings
When I had Ken switch the Sowter transformer in the reissue for the Cinemag.
There was no appreciable difference...really NOTHING gained at all.
And that was with quite a few people listening here at my studio to many different sources?
Truthfully, we could never guess correctly, which one was which?
Personally I thought the modules with the Beyer transformers didn't sound as good as any of the others,
including the reissues!
Smaller, closed in and not as wide is how I'd put it.
(My 2 cents only~!)

I Quote The Phantom
I was not disappointed and neither were they or Eddy Kramer in their results.  It's recognizable in a way that prompted the ever curious
Do you mean Sir Eddy Kramer !!!  
 http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/493092/16753/#m sg_493092

I Quote The Phantom
Cyril Jones to follow the rabbit further down the hole with his own tests. He managed quite nicely, I'm happy to report, and we will be using his Lustraphone clones
So in other words they are superior than the  Cinemag TX's. which if I am to understand you correctly,  is what you chose and endorsed and have now utilised in the Strawberry coloured console, will you also change the Cinemag's to Cyril's in the Strawberry Console as well.
Is it not the Cinemag TX's. which are also being endorsed by Dave Amels ? yet you prefer Cyril’s Transformer, if that is the case will Dave also make the change to Cyrils TX's as well

I Quote The Phantom
The graphs don't tell my ears a damned thing no matter what test equipment was used by WHOM.
Do you not use test equipment,  "amazing"  I and all well respected techs could not possible be without our test gear, as it is one way of getting the truth, due the fact that ears do differ from one another depending on who's.

I Quote The Phantom
Listen to as many of the possibilities out there as you can and buy what suits you...no need to join a CLUBHOUSE.
This I DO agree with but should any would-be client wish to obtain further endorsement of  The Helios Electronics Re-Issue,  one should visit other forums that hugely disagree with the negative findings of a small majority of people that Post on this Forum

Cyril Jones #1 No Nickname (Does not post, but gets others to risk landing in court.)  
who also dislikes me WHY you may ask
Cyril was not happy when I made it clear that he was not the person responsible for building the HeliosCentric Console I pointed out it was a gentleman called Mike Tupper who worked for me at that time.
Cyril was also upset when I turned down his offer to manufacture the re-issue’s
It was mainly because of reasons that should not be written here, also it would have been unfair to the person who carried out the reverse engineering and the building of the first

Jim Dowler,  Crosstalk (excellent nickname) and a friend of Cyril Jones enuf said.

David Kean (The Phantom) Did not like it when on several times I have had to point out his many mistakes during his Posta both here and on the ADR Thread, the final nail in the coffin when he insulted both my wife and I on a Saturday night,  and therefore lost the opportunity of owning 14 Original Lustraphone Type-69’s plus many other parts from Strawberry’s first Black Console.

Some members memories will remember my lack of thought when I responded to Dave Amels Posts on Gear Slutz, Funny but he is a tech whom I have a certain amount of respect for, especially when I see his other accomplishments
I think that I handled the situation incorrectly when he posted what were his second findings after testing a 1U rack version  being manufactured today.
It should have crossed my mind to send him another test module but it was too late when Dave had written his negative findings on Gear Slutz, he is one person whom I would like to meet and ask if we could start again if I apologised.
So much so,  I have recently exchanged one of our updated racks for one of our clients originals complete with  meters, we allowed him to keep both for a while thus allowing him to be sure he was not making a mistake, he found both to sound exactly the same so agreed with the change over because he liked having everything on the front panel which was what we intended,  but this update did not allow room for the Meters.
We will now be sending all four of our products for a new listening test and if Dave wants to be involved then I welcome him.
Why do I mention three Type-69's is because we will be adding another Type-69 to our present list of 4 Modules making it five.

I Quote The Phantom

As for "owners of original Helios", I would do it again in an instant.  I’m not referring to the Phantom,  I am referring to the original owners who have OWNED & PAID for these consoles when purchased new, tell me of one who still wants to own an Original Helios Console.
I was lead to understand that you do not own the consoles at The Audities Foundation they are owned by its members agreeing you are one.

Tony Arnold (Director),
Helios Electronics Ltd,
www.helios electronics.com

[Arny]

When I first discussed with my colleagues and RS about re-issuing  the Type-69 and at the same satisfy RS’s demands to improve upon the original, BUT  not I or RS had the funds to warrant stripping down an Original Lustraphone TX, as today an Original can demand $5,000 plus and without an original Lustraphone $1000 on a good day, net loss  $4,000,
BUT
Due to the skills and experiences of Brian Sowter we ended up with an improved spec regarding the Transformer with very little to almost no loss of the original Type-69 sound

So I have taken it on board for many years now, that maybe an original Lustraphone version could be a seller, to partner our currant very desired Re-Issue Type-69  that we manufacture today, which I and many others prefer the sound of.

Nevertheless each to his or her own,  so I will announce here and now, that we have now the funds and have therefore instructed Brian Sowter to carry out the same task utilising both Brian’s 50 years of experience most being likely the longest in Britain, coupled with his skills most likely being the finest available in Britain,  to make us our own clone of the Lustraphone.
Remember Brian was very active with Transformer Design at the same time that Lustraphone was, and Brian was Richard Swettenham's choice in the final years of Hleios Electronics Ltd Part-1 and Brian will continue to be of service with Helios Electronics Ltd Part-2

Brian has excepted the task to carry out a similar reverse engineering job by stripping down our Lustraphone to its bare parts using the same wire gauge, same size, and grade of lamination and specification, the size of the custom manufactured bobbin which will  also be the same,  as will the wiring techniques. to find out its secrets (Contrary to Crosstalk’s Post he is willing to carry out this work).

This new clone of the Original Lustraphone Transformer will be offered to all of our currant clients as an update with a small cost of around $40 per module it will also be available as a choice for any of our new clients as to which model they would prefer to purchase.
We hope to have this done within a couple of months

After one year we will Post our findings for those who may be interested.
Without a doubt I will be faced with criticism again but only from those who we have grown to know,  which I have to except this part of what makes our world go round,  after all there are only three of them as far as I know.

Best Regards

Tony.
Tony Arnold (Director),
Helios Electronics Ltd,
www.helios electronics.com

[compasspnt]

Grrh.

Now I will have to AGAIN spend hours going through strange writings to try to decipher what in the heck is even being said.

The thread is LOCKED until I have the time from my very busy schedule to mess with it.