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[garret]

Dave.. first off, thanks for participating.  J talks very highly of you...

How much do you find you have to be careful when mixing not to go too far with "creative mixing" like adjusting arrangements, adding harmonies, etc?

I'm not a professional ae/mixer (yet).... but I find it difficult when mixing other people's stuff to stop at "balance mixing."  I wonder how often you get negative reactions from clients when you cut out a verse to tighten up an arrangement, drop out some instrumentation, etc.  Is there a line in the sand you try not to cross?   Or is it just the old rule that if it sounds good, it is good.  In other words, it's better to be do what you think improves the tune, and ask for permission and forgiveness later.

-Garret

[M Carter]

You could always unveil it as 'the remix'  

[mcsnare]

If I hear something that I think will improve the tune, I do it. It doesn't matter what it is. People usually like what I've done about 80% of the time. The 20% that like it the original way, I'm happy to accomadate, without any ego on my part. Unless I think they are making a huge mistake and then I get out pistols and challenge them to a duel.
Dave

[typek]

maxim wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 18:32

pete wrote: "...nice phase on the kit mics" i had to flip half the mics' phase (i had to choose between going with kick coherent or snare coherent (i went with the snare...probably should have gone with kick...))

could someone explain that to me?

[mcsnare]

OK I had a minute today to do a quick master of my mix. Check it out. It's a 192 mp3
Dave

[maxim]

kellen wrote:

"could someone explain that to me?"

i'll have a go

sometimes (as in this case) the kick and snare are out of phase with each other as well as the other mics

in this situation, the kick and the room mics were in phase, and the snare and the overheads were in phase (if i remember rightly)

so i had to decide whether to flip the phase on the drum tracks to be either coherent with the bass drum or snare drum

i went with snare (although normally i'd go with kick, in order to get its waveform moving forward first)

[maxim]

dave wrote:

"OK I had a minute today to do a quick master of my mix. Check it out. It's a 192 mp3"

brilliant

i sat with my head between the speakers, turned it up and dissolve....

[typek]

Maxim...
thanks for the answer.. so.. then.. what exactly determines if the mics are in or out of phase? Doesnt it have to do with the direction they are faced in relation to eachother? Also, what do you use to flip the phase?

[garret]

typek wrote on Thu, 08 March 2007 11:26

Maxim... thanks for the answer.. so.. then.. what exactly determines if the mics are in or out of phase? Doesnt it have to do with the direction they are faced in relation to eachother? Also, what do you use to flip the phase?

If you're using a DAW, chances are you have polarity reversal buttons on each channel.   Or you can find a plugin to do it.. or if you're working on an analog mixing console, you might have polarity switches.... or if you use an external preamp or mixer, it might have polarity switches.

Quick pedantic aside:
Polarity switches are often labeled "phase", but that's technically not the correct term.  Phase refers the measure in degrees that two waveforms are apart.  (360 degrees is a whole wave).  So you could say two wave forms are out of phase when they're 45 degrees apart.   Polarity is a 180 degree swap.   Flipping the polarity of one wave form doesn't fix phase cancellations, it just makes them sound different.

How the phase of two tracks matches up is mostly luck... sometimes you can predict phase problems, like if you close mic the front and back of a guitar amp... or top and bottom of a snare.   But for two mics that are further apart, like overheads that will include some kick, matching up with the kick itself, you just have to experiment.

One method is to just try it and listen to the results...  flip the polarity of one of the tracks, and see if the combination is better or worse.   Listen for a tonal difference, like the snare gets fuller/fatter.   Keep whichever polarity sounds better to you.

You can also zoom in and look at the wave forms.  Check where the zero crossings are, and whether the waveform of one track goes up while the other goes down.  If so, they'll cancel out somewhat.

Stealing a graphic from somewhere...

[maxim]

thanks garret for the succinct explanation and jumping in before the grammar cops get here

please replace all instances of "flipping phase on a kick" with "switching polarity on the bass drum"


"what exactly determines if the mics are in or out of phase?"

the relative distance of the microphones from the source

i determine it by looking at the waveform, if i can

otherwise, it's done by ear

imo, visual assessment is more precise and a helluva lot simpler..


"Doesnt it have to do with the direction they are faced in relation to eachother?"

no


"Also, what do you use to flip the phase?"

dp5 has an "invert phase" plugin, which is all it does

most software has something like it

[j.hall]

by no means am i trying to offend, but phase and it's application to mixing is not really something i want to derail this thread/topic/educational experience.

you can find more then you care to know about phase coherency by searching google, or you can even start another thread on my forum to discuss.

[j.hall]

Mcsnare,  i know you typically avoid mastering your own work, but purely froma critical listening stand point, what are you listening to differently when you master a track you mixed?

and knowing you are going to master it, how does that effect your mixing process if at all?

[mcsnare]

Well just from a practical standpoint, my home monitor setup is not as high res as in the mastering studio, so at the very least I'm hearing it differently there, because the playback system is so different.
I just try to make it sound good at home and then make it sound good in the mastering studio! I don't mix differently if I know I'm gonna master it. I do know from experience, I usually mix a little big on the bottom and sometimes slightly darker than would be perfect. For me, those are the easiest mixes to master, because adding a bit of top and tightening up the bottom is easier than trying to make bottom or tame wild high end. I also have noticed a tendency for stuff I mix at home to be a little honky in the mids. I don't think what I came up with for IMP 10 had that honky mid, but frequently it does. I guess my monitors are a little mid shy plus all that mid that piles up using Dark Essence on everything....
Dave
btw the biggest source of phase issues in recording is whether pin 2 or 3 is hot on different mics or the phase was unknowingly flipped somewhere in the recording chain

[maxim]

"phase and it's application to mixing is not really something i want to derail this thread..."

fair enough

i still want to know about the reasons/goals behind the vocal mults

separate compression? eq? both?

also, i'd love to know more about dave's use of echo in this mix

as long as it's no bother, of course (or a trade secret...)

[Tom C]

maxim wrote on Fri, 09 March 2007 06:10

i still want to know about the reasons/goals behind the vocal mults separate compression? eq? both?

Can't speak for mcsnare, but in my not so long experience vocals
often get more impact when I use 2 vocal tracks and process each
one differently. Often one track is heavily processed, the other one
more on the save side, but that depends on the vocal performance
of the singer.
After that I blend to taste, often with automation. Oh, and if you
do that double check mono compatibility.

Tom