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Author Topic: IMP10 discussion thread  (Read 19115 times)

PaulyD

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2007, 01:06:51 am »

I'm 1 minute late on my submission...I'll understand if the rules are strictly enforced. I'll pull it if you want.

EDIT: withdrew for technical reason. Sad

Paul

NelsonL

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2007, 01:34:26 am »

Dang, I was done and uploaded last night. Long day at the studio, where we currently lack internet so I didn't get a chance to link.

10:29 PST just ain't good enough.
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henchman

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2007, 01:40:01 am »

jdier wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 20:23



I guess I am all alone in that I loved the song and the arrangement.

Jim



No your not. I liked it as well.

Tom C

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2007, 04:45:50 am »

Hi J.
first of all thanks for that detailed feedback!

j.hall wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 23:56


i like how you are leaning on the bass amp/distortion more then the DI.  i don't like how dark the drums are.  the vocal effects are an interesting choice, but i think the rest of the music isn't matching it.  you need your elements to meet each other "where they are".  if you want to go with that vocal effect (which i kinda of like) you should find where each element fits into that.  right now, the singer is on saturn, while the band is in route to get there.



I fully agree with you. The single subgroups (vox, drums/bass,guitar/rhythm guitar) of my mix sound IMHO good, but I never managed to put them all together and still like the song, I always feel a bit disconnected from the song. Dunno why...

j.hall


overall, i think it's not hitting hard enough.  you should compress the drums quite a bit harder and see if the pumping works with the vocal effects.



I'm still a bit chicken-hearted when it comes to compressor (ab-)use. I wanted to ask you that anyway, so how did you put drums and bass in your mix together that nicely?
I don't want detailed settings, just the general idea how to build such a good mix basement.

j.hall


thus far, i like your vocal the best, but i don't like your mix.


That's good to hear, because normally vocals are the weakest part of my mixing.

I don't like my mix either (in fact originally I didn't want to submit it at all) but figured I could learn a lot from a not-so-good feedback.

Thanks again for your time.

Tom

[Edit:] my review of the mixes will follow ASAP.
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Red Tape

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2007, 05:00:48 am »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 22:56

Red Tape

great vocal tone.  it's compressed well and EQ'd well.

where's the beef?????  the drums are dark, distant (not verb, volume) have no bottom and aren't propelling the mix forward.  the drummer in this recording is the only one with any feel.  that in mind, your snare sound is good, just needs a some more high end.  you want your snare drum to be as bright, but not any brighter, then the lead vocal and vice versa (that's a real gem there.........so don't blow me off......)

i'd guess you as a bass player based on this mix.  guitars and drums are fairly back, bass and vocal is up front.  if you have a pair of headphones you trust, i'd be curious how the mix would change if you did it in headphones.


Haha, thanks dude.

Everything here is telling me what I'm already going crazy about - ie sorting out my monitoring and room!

It did occur to me that I forgot some general brightening as I was uploading.. oh well Smile
I tried to stick the guitars and bass together as much as possible, but I'm guessing the nasty low end response in my room was lying to me about how much bass I had going on.
Ditto on the no-low-end drums. It sounded like I was almost overdoing it in the room.

Gotta get me some headphones in the meantime!

maxim wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 00:32


pete wrote:

"...nice phase on the kit mics"

i had to flip half the mics' phase (i had to choose between going with kick coherent or snare coherent (i went with the snare...probably should have gone with kick...))


Haha!
I should have done more than casual flipping then Smile


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maxim

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2007, 06:15:43 am »

the first thing i do is line up the drum tracks and zoom all the way into a bass drum hit

this is where the eyes really help the ears

you can see exactly what's in phase and what ain't...
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M Carter

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2007, 08:06:42 am »

That's funny, I didn't feel like I had to do any phase flippage at all.    I usually don't look for that sort of thing unless I hear it.  

that was probably the least amount of work I've ever done on a kit.  Maybe it shows, I dunno.


Matt
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Red Tape

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2007, 08:52:27 am »

I'll always flip phase around a bit on a kit, but unless I'm hearing big changes in the low end, or obvious swooshy crap on the cymbals, I figure it's good.

Also, did anyone hear any pop/click stuff on some of the tracks.
There was one at 0:48 on the non-rat bass track as far as i recall.
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Red Tape

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2007, 08:54:46 am »

By the way, any tracking info available for this tune?
What mics where and so on?
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j.hall

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2007, 09:35:53 am »

red tape.....sennheiser HD-580.  that's what you want.  they are pretty cheap, and they sound amazing for mixing.  they are open backs so you can't track with them.  comfortable, and great sounding.

some one asked about me sharing details about the bands.

all the tracks we mix are from posters here on the forum (thus far).  if they choose to tell people the band's name and that they tracked it more power to 'em.

how do i build a drum and bass blend.  oh man, that's like asking me how i write songs the way i do.

let me think about this, so i can give you a well thought out answer with the hope of actually being helpful.  right now, my answer would be, "i don't know, i just do it"

i need to review the rest of the submissions.....it'll take some time, but i'm going to review every single one this time.
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Adam Miller

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2007, 01:07:28 pm »

I'm going to attempt to review all of the submissions.... all of this is on a strictly 'first impressions' kind of basis, so apologies if I miss anything or anyone.

First off, I liked the track, not just sonically but musically too. It might not be single material, but I wouldn't agree it's boring, or that the drummer is the only one playing with any feel.


A couple of things- minus points go to anyone who didn't flip the phase relationship between overs and snare mics, and (personal preference time) anyone who didn't shift the timing on that very last bass note.
 
Without further ado, in the order wot I downloaded them in...

Rattleyour- Not bad at all. I think the mix is too kick heavy; it also needs a more agressive and forward midrange to make it kick more in the choruses. Good vocal tone and blend. For my taste, I would have used far less of the DI tracks in the chorus and really cranked up the amp tracks.

Jdier- That ambience is a bit distracting to my ears. Kind of feels like the drummer playing in an empty hall. The mix sounds like your monitoring situation is very bright; you could pretty much lowpass the mix at 10k and not really miss anything.

JHall- Great mix. Lowend feels a bit too enveloping- IMO it could do with a little more focus, but nothing that couldn't be done in mastering. The whole thing also feels a bit too reticent in the himids and overall treble- it just doesn't cut quite like it could. Otherwise, I love the way the whole thing kicks, and the balance between elements is pretty spot on. Did you replay the guitar solo on a kazoo?

Scott oliphant- Sounds like there might be some monitoring issues going on here. I get where you're going with that bright, compressed snare, but it just doesn't quite sit right to me. Guitars sound great in the choruses, but the lowend and the drum sounds aren't quite there.

Rankus- My favourite mix by quite a stretch. I'm guessing you tracked this one? It just kicks right; and I wouldn't agree with J's kick drum assessement, seems to have plenty of meat to me, even if doesn't have the 60hz thud going on. The drums are maybe a little too high in the mix, and my personal preference would be a little more low mid action in the guitars... but I'm nitpicking here!

ATOR- Not keen on the intro; it just feels a bit gimmicky to me, sorry! The vocal starts off sitting on top of the music in the verse, but then the hi-end kind of gets consumed by the chorus and it moves right to the back. The effects in the last chorus could be really cool, but the perspective on them isn't quite right on in this case.

ICombs- more monitoring issues I think. The lowend is all-consuming! Beyond that, I think it's actually quite a cool mix- nice vox and guitar tones; could do with more overs and room mics. Balance-wise, it sounds pretty good.

Singsing- That guit line at the top sticks right out; it also has a little midrange thing that almost sounds like feedback going on with it that should have been filtered out. Your tones are pretty cool, especially in the chorus, although a bit too much guit DI for my liking. Not a bad mix, it just feels 80% of the way there to my ears.

 
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Adam Miller

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2007, 01:30:38 pm »

Max- this just loses me very quickly. It needs the aggression from the distorted guits in the chorus to work as a song, and I think it sufferes very heavily without that.

Redtape- The verses here feel a bit lofi; like a band recording in a rehearsal space, rather than a 'proper' recording. I like the idea of the repeating vocal lines towards the end of the track... nice touch.

Tom C- more monitoring issues? No hi-end at all. Sounds like your speakers have a massive smiley-face EQ over them.

GregDixon- The verses here sound really promising- a bit heavy on the bass lowend, but otherwise a pretty cool blend of stuff. The choruses just lose all the impact though, mainly on account of the guitar sounds; I could pretty much have run the amp sounds flat in the mix and got away with it- the sounds here just don't quite have the kick the song requires.

Henchman- Interesting, and quite different from most of the others. Sounds like you've dipped all the mids out of the track, but I think that's where the essence of this kind of music lies. The discrete sounds are pretty good, and balance-wise everything sounds in place (vox could come up a little), but the overall thing just sounds a bit anaemic. And mono!

Nizzle- Those drums just don't sit right in the verses, and there's a weird dip across the whole midrange to my ears. I do like the ambience you've got on the drums, the snare sounds cool in the choruses. I think the track as a whole just misses the 'chunk' it needs in the midrange to make it rock.

Grant Richard- Yeah, that bus compressor can be a dangerous weapon! The vocal tone sounds properly cocked, I don't know how else to describe it! The balance in the choruses is actually pretty cool, if a little lacking in attitude (that's not just a compression thing...). Without wanting to sound too patronising (and probably failing), it's pretty good for a first effort!

ChrisJ- Did you change the timing on the kick? Sounds like it's been shifted 10-20msec forward, and it completely screws the groove of the track, sorry. Looking beyond the kick (the tone needs serious surgery too), the rest of balance is not bad at all; maybe a bit more ambience on the lead vox wouldn't go amiss?

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chrisj

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2007, 02:10:13 pm »

ChrisJ (me)- Boy, that kick drum pokes out a lot. It's all about the vocal- everything that isn't boring or the vocal is ultra-subtle.

Henchman- Sort of glossy, like looking down through the surface of a clear pool on a sunny day. I can see the light show, but there aren't any spotlights on the singer. There's no star, it's a concert experience.

iCombs- The rhythm section are boring. Singer is the star- kinda. I like how the singer's the focal point here, but some of the other stuff isn't clicking- like, the heavy guitars in the choruses seem PODlike. I'm fighting to come up with good stuff when the band (I agree with J here) isn't carrying its weight. Things feel natural, and honest. Honest isn't proving to be that exciting here. Oh- with this you can pick up on the small shifts in energy level like towards the end, but it only illustrates how the energy is mostly not very high...

ATOR- Startlement! Here we're using the RAT bass, probably because it's another unusual element. It seems like the singer is being cut off perhaps from his stash of psychedelic drugs, maybe. I think this is a good psychedelic mix. It knows when to get out of the way, it's got the vibe, the treatment fits the song and the presentation. I keep warming to the sheer over-the-topness of this. You get the Hunter S Memorial White Rabbit At Dawn At 120 DB award Very Happy

Rankus- Hey, an AC-DC mix! Or at least the band and the drums are pure hard rock. It's a nice trick to make the drums hit this hard. It leaves the vocal not carrying its weight, the vox is weak compared to the drive of this rhythm section mix. I actually had to scoot the vocal forward in time to put it in front of the band. The band is _flattening_ the poor bastard this way.

SingSing- Big thumping thing, all hihat and kickdrum rumble. The annoying guitar riff keeps popping up but it's neat when it shuts back off and changes the whole texture of the song that way- manufacturing arrangement in mix. You get the Mute Button Dancer award Smile

Spoon- Pretty straight here. I think it helps having the RAT bass reinforce the guitars, and I like where the vocal sits. He seems a little distant and weak, but there's still a space for him, I can believe that I'm supposed to be listening to him. I like the spaciousness.

Adam Miller- This comes from the hard rock direction. The color of the lead vocalist's voice is being more important than his actual performance, which is a bit dangerous- like relegating him to being just another instrument, just another color. Okay, don't kill me for this- I'm thinking Def Leppard here, a bit. Something about how neatly everything is laid out. Some people puke over Def Leppard, but it IS Mutt Lange after all.

Grant Richard- The poor vocalist, he's really being squished between the guitars and things, it sounds like it hurts Smile I think the main thing to remember here is that if we heard this level of compression confined to just certain elements like the snare drum it would kick ass! Got to address the individual tracks more, that's all. I've recently found that it works much better if there is always a BIT more volume available for new instruments coming in, no matter what. This is totally the opposite, the full band is constantly squishing down to be quieter than, say, a stray hi-hat beat, and it's all buss compression. Do that with the individual tracks, not on the buss so much.

Greg Dixon- Yikes LOUD. Is this buss compression done entirely as peak limiting? There's a weird spaciousness here in a boxey way. It reminds me a little of the way some good records (Hotel California, say) had weirdly overspacious, peak-expanded mixes that could be practically unnatural. In this one, the dynamic throb is expanded so much that I can't hear it anymore. It's spectacular, but sort of distracting. It's not making me want to listen to this, even though I can hear any detail I like, effortlessly. Nothing appeals very much. That has to be the expandeyness working, nothing else is so wrong with it.

jdier- Everything's there- sort of distant- extra reverb producing a big space more from added verb than from tricks like compressing individual drums. I don't think any of the performances really carry this style of mixing. If it was The Who, lots of stuff would be popping out of the mix just because it was played that way, but this sort of sits there. This is why sometimes more aggressive mixing techniques have their merits. Compare with ATOR's weirdathon and notice the way brightness, compression and the aggressive presentation of bizarre elements keep the song from just sitting there.

Nick T- I'm liking the energy on this one- I feel the intensity of the lead vocal in this context. I'm finding the hihats and cymbals pretty distracting, but it's right on the edge of what I can keep listening to. I like that I'm able to believe it's an interesting song.

redtape- Very straight. Very nonjudgemental mix- not being very opinionated about what things need to take the focus. Can't be doing that when the song is trudging along like this Smile You get the Steve Albini Truthfulness award Very Happy now, if the band were setting the studio on fire you'd have something here. But, nice echo vocal arrangement trick assuming it's right for the song to have the fellow singing 'love a losing fight' and NOT pausing while the chord breaks... I do actually like him pausing there. Rats, I'm doing badly on the merry-sunshine crap Smile

Scott Oliphant- Drums: a raging bull Oliphant Very Happy Damn, that is some impressive pounding drum sounds. Dominates the song, it does. It's a good thing the vocalist is mixed to be able to compete with the loudness of it- though he does NOT quite have the personality presence to compete, and that's what's not clicking. I want to hear a superclose, frayed-nerves hear-every-spittle vocal in front of a backdrop this dramatic, especially the way the buss compression is causing it to roar and surge. The guy can't  be sitting in the middle of it, he drowns even if he's very clear. He drowns in the synesthetic overload of rock mayhem. Gotta be a super-present, Bowie-like self-indulgent spotlighting to balance out the sheer overload of the backing music... or the backing music has to tone down to not drown the poor guy.

Look at me talking like I know things. Hee. Very Happy ignore the man behind this curtain. Moving right along...

Will F- Very solid, very dense. Something's resonating, VERY MUCH, what the heck is it, will it stop? I gotta see if it will stop. It's a treatment on that three-note guitar riff. The resonatingness went away, oh now it's back. In mono it gets reduced to a fairly ordinary loudish guitar. In stereo, it hurts my head surprisingly much. Too wide, too steady-state with everything... The rhythm and variances in energy levels have to be made MORE, not flattened out.

Anonymous- Pretty straight... another one where it doesn't seem very opinionated, like it's important to balance each player fairly and equally so nothing really stomps all over anything else. I just don't think this material survives that type of treatment, because too much of it is, as J says, boring. You'd have to have a better song and the band really putting in an effort for this to work. It only conveys their disinterest.

Fantomas- Pretty straight here too. More attention for the vocalist, which helps. I think I'm hearing reverb on him- part of the reason I didn't put any verb on him was just to try and get him as much upfront as I could, but it's also because I'm more interested in the little frayed edges of his performance than in the richness of his vocal tone, which isn't that special on this song. I didn't think the song was carried by the singer-ly-ness of the fellow, but by whatever wonky stuff I could scrape up. Here it's like the song is carried by the guy as a crooner, and he's not being passionate enough to sell that idea. If you crank him until the little asides jump out and he's distorty on the loud notes, it at least sounds like he's emoting all over the performance.

J Hall- This time, primo compression amounts Very Happy it produces an effect like the track is a big surging wave but any given element can burst out as the white-cap on the wave. The voice rides the wave very well. I'm less fond of the verb on the vocal, but since I tried to do something very different of course it strikes me that way. It changes drastically from verse to chorus- I like the idea of building the interesting-mix-stuff off the lead vocal, specifically, and the way the weird stuff is selected. Sounds like a rock video with lots of distracting imagery Smile

Nizzle- Well, I did not expect those noises! Very Happy Then, suddenly, we're a metal song. Actually, it's pretty convincing. Kinda squashed on the 2-buss, like Greg Dixon's. I wonder if it's simply that peak-limitey factor that makes me find that, and this, sort of unappealing to hear. It's like everything is smashed so loud that the point of the attack disappears completely. Some of these mixes just make me want to duck, or perhaps cringe back from the intensity of the sound coming out. I like bringing stuff out with dynamics processing and distortion so it becomes upfront, but some mixes go SO in your face it just hurts your head. Please less of that k? I can't headbang and wince at the same time.

3'6"- Oh, MAN! Sorry dude. *click* Only guy so far where I just gave up. I thought Nizzle was loud but yours REALLY hurts. Less plz k?

M Carter- Back in the land of the living, we are enjoying spaciousness and reverb. Very deep and big. The vocal's clear enough, I just keep wanting him to be standing well in front of the band. Doing reverb stuff with him makes him not stand in front, unless you use really big predelays. Also, here we have experimental confirmation of a Charles Dye theory! You get the Verb On The Snare Defines The Size Of The Mix award Smile

Maxim- Hmm, strange dissonances. Fairly straight other than that, but it was pretty cool how the dissonances set up an expectation of a frazzled sort of song- that's what I thought it wanted to be, too. Also, the arrangement changes are highlighted, I hear stuff being taken out in some places to exaggerate the way the arrangement density shifts. This one doesn't hit me very hard but I'm finding a lot that I think are good ideas, good judgement calls. Makes me want to keep hearing Maxim-mixin.

Tom C- Sort of big trashy feel. Reminds me a bit of Steve Albini, except the vocal is the anti-steve. With backing tracks this visceral, I want the vocal dry and nose-to-nose with me. Other than that I like it- another bass fan I see, very heavy bass-end on this one.

Whew! Hope I hung on to some of the positivity I wanted to bring. I had a lot of fun with the track, and look forward to the next one Smile

rankus

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2007, 02:17:10 pm »

Red Tape wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 05:54

By the way, any tracking info available for this tune?
What mics where and so on?


Hi Red,

Time to come forwards I suppose...

I'm the one who tracked this song.  Here is a list of tracks etc.:


Song = Losing Fight

Artist = Cosmedic

Professional Demo



Tracks to the best recollection:



Bass Di - Music Man Stingray into SansAmp Bass Driver DI (Pedal) - Brick Pre

Bass Amp - Re-mp DI into - RAT Pedal - Galleon Kruger 400 amp - Rode NT2000 - Brick

KICK - Sen 421 - RME Octo Mic Pre

Snare - SM 57 - RME Octo Mic Pre

Snare Under - SM 57 - RME Octo Mic Pre

Shit Mic - Stromberg Carlson Carbon Crystal Mic - RME Octo Mic Pre

Rak Tom - AT 4033 - RME Octo Mic Pre

Flr Tom - AT 4033 - RME Octo Mic Pre

Ovr Hd L - Rode NT2000 - Brick Pre

Ovr Hd R - Rode NT2000 - Brick Pre

Drm Room L - Royer 121 - RME Octo Mic Pre

Drm Room R - Royer 121 - RME Octo Mic Pre

Rhythm Gtrs DI - Radial JDV

Rhythm Gtrs - Marshall JCM 2000 - Royer 121 - Brick

Lead Gtrs - Marshall JCM 2000 - Royer 121 - Brick

Lead Vocal - Sound Elux E47 - Brick - DBX 160x comp

BU Vocals - ? - Brick




Drums = DW kit With Zildian Cymbals

Gtrs = Gibson ES 335 , Fender Jaguar, Gibson SG

Bass = Music Man Stingray

+ 1 Good Song

This was a song demo for Chris of the Band "Cosmedic" before he formed the band.  The demo was intended to up the anti for prospective future members IE:  You have to be this good in order to join.

We hired in Scotty Sexx to play drums.  Scotty is the drummer from the Bif Naked Band who are pretty popular in Canada.

Chris played all the guitars, and sang.

Rob the bass player was the first member to join the band...

Some folks mentioned the Josh Holme thing... Yes, this was one of my first thoughts when I heard Chris's music as well.  We were going for a stoner rock meets the Beatles kinda vibe on this song.  The song reminds me of "Dear Prudence"  from strictly a vibe point of view.

You can check out more of Chris's stuff on MySpace at:

Cosmedic / MySpace

He's the one on the left.  Bass player Rob second from left.

We did a five song EP, and are currently seeking funding to complete the album.  One or two of the mixes on MySpace were not mine.

Chris is shopping for a label deal.

NOTE: some people commented thet they found the song boring... I should note that this is a tendancy with "Stoner Rock" / "Desert Rock" to be a bit "drone" ish ....

All I can say is that there are MANY folks that are going crazy over his sound in these parts... including me... I love this band!

Anyway, I will download the submissions and try to critique over the next few days...

Thanks everyone!

EDIT Chris and Adam:  You missed my submission in your critique... although I had more time to mix than you guys, it would be nice to hear what you think. Link:

Rankus - Losing Fight

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chrisj

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Re: IMP10 discussion thread
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2007, 02:19:15 pm »

Adam- exactly right, I pushed the kick forwards, I'm also compressing the crap out of it and gating it with reverse lookahead so the gate is actually chopping the front of the transient off. I did evil things to that kick  Twisted Evil the reason is, I thought the groove was boring and the kick lagged, so I did evil things to make it hit well forward of where it was, hoping that would liven things up. If I liked the groove enough to worry about ruining it I would have left the timing alone Smile that said, one thing that happened was I had trouble making a fine enough adjustment- it was only slipping tracks in Logic's arrange window, and there seems to be a little dead zone forcing you to make a certain minimum slip. I'd have used a _bit_ less than what I had, if not for that- but I would still have slipped it anyway.

Rick- I didn't miss you, you were in the song submission thread. I said "Hey, an AC-DC mix!" and talked about how the rhythm section was so strong it was flattening the vocalist, personality-wise.

Cheers Smile
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