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Author Topic: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school  (Read 5782 times)

wwittman

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2007, 05:42:53 pm »

From the UN report do out this week:

"Next week's science report will say there is a 90% chance that human activity is warming the planet,..."

I guess they are convinced because they are "not familiar with atmospheric science" in comparison to you.

right?

or they're all just "anti-business".


Some scientists are "convinced" smoking is bad for you either.

We call these "shills"

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Mark Pixley

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2007, 09:12:31 pm »

wwittman wrote on Sun, 28 January 2007 16:42

From the UN report do out this week:

"Next week's science report will say there is a 90% chance that human activity is warming the planet,..."

I guess they are convinced because they are "not familiar with atmospheric science" in comparison to you.

right?

or they're all just "anti-business".


Some scientists are "convinced" smoking is bad for you either.

We call these "shills"



Please tell me you are not quoting the UN after reading Socrates post revealing the incredible amount of money driven science?

How many UN science reports would you like?

The entire global warming debate seems a bit like asking an entire orchestra to play different pieces all the while retuning and expect everyone to end up on the same note.

Ain't gonna happen.

A very important word never mentioned in Al's wonderful movie is "parameterization"...

Until science can come up with the equivalent of A 440 then I think the best course of action is for everyone to recycle, use as few petroleum products as necessary and stay away from tossing virgins into volcanoes (which happen to be the bigger culprit in aerosol manufacturing)..(volcanoes, produce more aerosols although virgins may add to the amount of aerosols purchased they do not make them)

Reality says to wait until Feb.

Why Feb.?

Because the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change will issue their report then.

Frankly the UN is no longer an unbiased source of anything, let alone science, its a bit like asking Congress if they should give themselves a raise.


Parameterization... look it up it is the key to this Pandora's box.

There is no way a scientist can determine which parameters to use without entering some sort of personal bias into the model.

Impossible.

And given that the effects of global warming are just as hard to predict as the evidence how are we certain that global warming is a bad thing?

What if global warming produces crops for starving Africans?

Is it such a bad thing?

What if the worst effect is we lose some real estate in Florida but millions of Ethiopians get to eat instead?

How do you quantify the results?

What if the hockey stick is a good thing?

Al Gore does a wonderful job creating alarm, but we still do not know if the outcome is good for the planet, it only seems bad to us because the alarm was meant to target a certain audience.

What if global warming could create a a climate in the Mideast that allowed huge crops of corn and wheat so that the current displaced young men could be working farms and saving the world by food production?

Wouldn't that be cool?

So until someone can define which parameterization we are judging this by perhaps the warning si a bit premature.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if global warming ended the wars in the middle-east?

And how can anyone prove that it won't?

Parameterization.

Lets see the equation before we judge the sum.

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Socrates

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2007, 10:27:39 pm »

Hmmm. This reminds me of when Gandalf returned after slaying the Balrog:  "Gandalf? Oh yes. That's what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. That was my name." Interesting.

I have been trying to think of an analogy for my skepticism, and this is what keeps coming to mind--admittedly it is clumsy, but my muse just won't let go, and I must ultimately defer to it when creative matters are at stake.

***

So, the newspaper reports that a guy finished giving a speech and then started flapping his arms and flew a mile away.

Then others dispute this, saying he only flew a half mile.

But my problem is I know that humans don't have the power of flight so I don't see much point in a dispute over how far someone flew by flapping his arms.

***

--well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I thought JJ blair was reasonably polite given my chesty argumentation, so I felt I would explain a bit more. I guess if you get your science from politicians, what you get is Political Science.

As for challenging people's common wisdom, well, my namesake got nothing but a cup of hemlock for his troubles.  Very Happy
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PookyNMR

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2007, 11:25:39 pm »

Scientists agree - butter is bad for you.  Use margarine and other hydrogenated oils and trans-fats to help you live longer.

Fundamentalist faith in science is foolish.
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Nathan Rousu

dcollins

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2007, 01:50:09 am »

PookyNMR wrote on Sun, 28 January 2007 20:25


Fundamentalist faith in science is foolish.


Science does not use faith.

DC

Mark Pixley

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2007, 09:09:04 am »

dcollins wrote on Mon, 29 January 2007 00:50

PookyNMR wrote on Sun, 28 January 2007 20:25


Fundamentalist faith in science is foolish.


Science does not use faith.

DC

I will politely disagree.

At some point...

When the scientist encounters the unknown...

(And every scientist WILL)...

He/She/They...


Must make an assumption...

The basis of that assumption...

Is faith in something.

It may be faith in science, but it is faith none-the-less.
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PookyNMR

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2007, 12:59:50 pm »

dcollins wrote on Sun, 28 January 2007 23:50

PookyNMR wrote on Sun, 28 January 2007 20:25


Fundamentalist faith in science is foolish.


Science does not use faith.



In my science training, it was called 'assumptions' that were written into the reports.  
But those assumptions were many times indeed a matter of faith.

But my real point is that many people place a fundamentalist type faith in 'science' - when the reliablitiy of the output of science (and I use medical science as an example) has proven itself to be completely unworthy of such high levels of faith.

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Nathan Rousu

Socrates

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2007, 05:24:47 pm »

We had a saying about system users' misplaced faith in programs:

Garbage in, Gospel out!
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maxdimario

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2007, 07:22:04 pm »

there is a very strong catholic influence in this part of Italy, the industrial north.

the girl I'm seeing these days and some other people from here have taken trips to medjiugore to see a group of people who claim to see the virgin mary on a daily basis, attracting much tourism and money in the process..

she also goes to religious meetings nearby where there are 'teachers' etc. spiritual issues etc..

it's...informing... for lack of a better word to hear what they tell her about life, god and jesus.

every word is geared towards getting whoever participates to follow blindly and never question..  the promise of eventual eternal life through spiritual evolution is the reward.

She started to recite about how the devil influences the lives of every one and how evil spirits thrive on suffering and pain of humans..how the devil acts for the benefit of what we call ego.

I asked her if she knew of any PERSON who thrives on other people's suffering and desires to exploit and enslave others for PERSONAL benefit.. there was a slight pause..

it's great to blame every crime commited on the devil, very convenient.

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J.J. Blair

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2007, 07:59:39 pm »

I blame overly loud and compressed CDs on the devil.

But I'm half jewish, so I only kinda half believe that.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2007, 08:34:59 pm »

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist." -- Roger "Verbal" Kint, The Usual Suspects.

Barry
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dcollins

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2007, 01:25:12 am »

PookyNMR wrote on Mon, 29 January 2007 09:59


But my real point is that many people place a fundamentalist type faith in 'science' - when the reliablitiy of the output of science (and I use medical science as an example) has proven itself to be completely unworthy of such high levels of faith.



How did medicine fail us?

How can we accept the products of Science, yet reject its methods?

As of tomorrow, I believe gravity is just some creation of big-business to keep me "down."  And the mass of the Electron is controlled by Kate Moss.

DC






danickstr

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2007, 01:28:04 am »

well socrates I am not a scientist either and you seem like a decent chap so I will have to let the scientists fight this one, but I am still a plebian advocate for erasing my own carbon footprint with cash, and I guess that will have to do for now.

I prefer to pick battles with people who are bigger assholes than you.  Not that you even are in that category at all, just that others are in it and are really big ones.  I will give them more of my time. you can go about your business questioning me and others for believing al gore.

but if you ahve the chance to see it, I would be more impressed with your argument after the fact.  

but if you said you dont want to see it for the reasons i wont see another mel gibson film, because you think he is a sick soul, i can understand that too.  I just think al gore is a fairly good guy who wants to help.  he is a bit of a geek, but that makes sense.  he likes science.
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minister

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2007, 02:18:39 am »

Mark Pixley wrote on Mon, 29 January 2007 08:09

dcollins wrote on Mon, 29 January 2007 00:50

PookyNMR wrote on Sun, 28 January 2007 20:25


Fundamentalist faith in science is foolish.


Science does not use faith.

DC

I will politely disagree.

At some point...

When the scientist encounters the unknown...

(And every scientist WILL)...

He/She/They...


Must make an assumption...

The basis of that assumption...

Is faith in something.

It may be faith in science, but it is faith none-the-less.



excuse me?

make an assumption?  

i think you might mean, a hypothesis.  something that is, publicly verifiable, testable, using publicly available methods.  by 'publicly available' i mean able to be viewed and verified by others who understand the terms (the opposite of solepcism and subjectivism).

'paradigms', in the Kuhnian sense, is a set of theories or axioms that explain a set of facts.  the 'shift' happens when the theories cannot explain the anomalies.  this is not faith, but verifiable conclusions that lead to a system of thought.  newton, as smart as he was, was only able to eplxain so much, it took einstein and a few others to re-cast the thinking based on new findings.  s shift happened.  it wasn't new faith.

faith is a leap.  a leap over something that is not verifiable or publicly available, to a conclusion or expplanantion as to an order.  i am not saying it is wrong.  i am not saying that some scietists don't have faith.

you are deflating and confusing terms.  there are plenty of things science cannot explain.  and much it does not know.  but it clearly eschews faith.
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Mark Pixley

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Re: "Inconvenient Truth" banned, then unbanned in Seattle high school
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2007, 09:24:25 am »

Semantics.

Ie:

What was before there was anything?

Only an assumption because by your definition there is nothing that can be verified in a lab or public.

And you are right most scientist eschew faith...which is a bit of hoot considering they are left with nothing to take the leap once you go back far enough.

And you know as well as I that on every conclusion all you have to do is go back past the realm of our capacity...after that you can eschew anything you want but the reality is a leap must be made.
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