Topic: Full-range speakers (..or wide-range..) (Read 10607 times)

Viitalahde · « **on:** January 16, 2007, 09:05:18 AM »

I just heard a pair of 6" Fostex full-range drivers threw in a crappy box. I've got to say the midrange was very good & open.

Anyone aware of anyone mastering with speakers having only one full-range driver? I've seen some pretty crazy looking pics of horn-loaded fullrangers. Those things must distort like crazy when listened loud and the extreme highs & lows are lacking, but damn, I can't quite get over the midrange. I think I must build a pair of speakers like that for home listening, at least.

maxdimario · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2007, 02:05:55 PM »

they sound really good with a lifelike presence to them... although freq response and beaming problems, along with high distortion would probably make them better suited for home listening (for the added feel factor) or mixing (for the accurate proportion of midrange between instruments)..

you have to get to know them of course..

in the hifi world those speakers are often loaded in a horn-like enclosure to increase bass..

bblackwood · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2007, 03:44:02 PM »

Not aware of any single drive speakers suitable for mastering, but for just listening fun, there are tons of DIY solutions...

Greg Youngman · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2007, 09:37:24 PM »

I guess Tannoys would not be considered "single driver" but "single-point" or coaxial... they are wide range and I surely love mine.

Fostex made some high-end studio monitors in the 70's that were very nice. I've got the brochure that I'll try and get scanned and provide a link.

compasspnt · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2007, 11:14:17 PM »

I make my own nearfield full range (no x-over) speakers for mixing.

But I would never master on them.

Jerry Tubb · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2007, 12:40:39 AM »

Greg Youngman wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 20:37

I guess Tannoys would not be considered "single driver" but "single-point" or coaxial... they are wide range and I surely love mine.

Anyone ever try the Tannoys with the "Mastering Lab" crossover mod?

JT

mixsit · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2007, 03:27:22 AM »

These might be of interest. They cross over at around 650Hz.
http://www.4sptech.com/version2/continuum-ad_features.html

Wayne Smith

Tomas Danko · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2007, 06:58:59 AM »

This reminds me. One week to deadline, I HAVE to hook up my trusty old Auratone's before we do the final mix sessions. And no two ways about it.

I have yet to find any other speaker to deliver the state of the balance between the music and vocals as well as the 5C cube's.
The balance seems good on the big modern speakers. Switch to the Auratone's. You check the mix, hear if the vocals are too loud or quiet. You move the fader until it sounds right. Switch back to big modern speakers, and it still sounds good.

I totally believe this has to do with the single "wide-range" speaker.

As for mastering, I guess knowing your high end full range monitors and room while getting continous work on a day-to-day basis is how it's being done.

Greg Youngman · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2007, 12:26:52 PM »

Jerry Tubb wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 21:40

Greg Youngman wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 20:37

I guess Tannoys would not be considered "single driver" but "single-point" or coaxial... they are wide range and I surely love mine.

Anyone ever try the Tannoys with the "Mastering Lab" crossover mod?

JT

I know I've heard them in studios that had them years ago. Manley Labs is still beating that horse.

http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/ml10a99.html

I've heard that Lowthers are pretty impressive, although I've never personally heard them.

http://www.lowtherspeakers.com/drivers.html

And just found this... looks like Lowthers are actually FOSTEX!

http://www.fostexspeakers.com/fostex.html

TotalSonic · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2007, 12:43:54 PM »

Tomas Danko wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 11:58

This reminds me. One week to deadline, I HAVE to hook up my trusty old Auratone's before we do the final mix sessions. And no two ways about it.

I have yet to find any other speaker to deliver the state of the balance between the music and vocals as well as the 5C cube's.

A company called "Avantone" has actually reissued the 5C SC's -
http://www.avantelectronics.com/AVANTONE_mixcubes.htm
- with most users saying they are very close to the original.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Viitalahde · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2007, 01:11:21 PM »

Yeah, I've heard of Lowthers before. Very expensive drivers if I remember correctly.

I still wonder how the midrange sounded so good. Since the Fostex driver has a double cone (whizzer cone?), where the big one plays the lows and the small centre one the highs, there must be some sort of a mechanical crossover, right? We need Thomas Barefoot to step in here. Maybe the idea of a single point source plays here.

I think we're gonna build a pair for the mix room. I love the idea of mastering with a pair single-driver speakers, but I can't see how it'd work out in the real world. Damn!

Viitalahde · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2007, 01:16:02 PM »

http://www.hifisound.de/oxid/oxid.php/sid/a6fa405df88b060525 2e8a73747f2a7f/cl/details/cnid/31e4124c763abbe24.61837719/an id/31e4124c9c23a9021.28353632/LOWTHER-PM-5a-KOBALT-MAGNET/

I doubt these drivers are ~$1400 good..

Greg Youngman · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2007, 01:27:50 PM »

Viitalahde wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 10:11

I still wonder how the midrange sounded so good.

No phase distortion due to the single point... in phase because of time coherency.

I attended an AES show (late 60's early 70's?) in which Tannoy had their Super Reds ( I think that's what they were called), SRM 10's and 12's and A/B them against UREI, JBL, TAD and other boxes. I became a believer.

Tomas Danko · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2007, 01:56:58 PM »

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 17:43

Tomas Danko wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 11:58

This reminds me. One week to deadline, I HAVE to hook up my trusty old Auratone's before we do the final mix sessions. And no two ways about it.

I have yet to find any other speaker to deliver the state of the balance between the music and vocals as well as the 5C cube's.

A company called "Avantone" has actually reissued the 5C SC's -
http://www.avantelectronics.com/AVANTONE_mixcubes.htm
- with most users saying they are very close to the original.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

They seem to be well made.

I'm happy to have a pair of old Auratone's in great condition. They were from the old ABBA studio Polar. But should they ever fail or start to sound bad it's a good thing to know perhaps there is an alternative in the future, because I really find these speakers very useful indeed.

Cheers,

Tomas Danko

compasspnt · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2007, 02:48:09 PM »

Lowther are not Fostex. That company just sells them both.

The smaller Tannoys of that time were called the Little Reds. They were not red though.

barefoot · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2007, 02:50:46 PM »

Viitalahde wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 10:11

...driver has a double cone (whizzer cone?), where the big one plays the lows and the small centre one the highs, there must be some sort of a mechanical crossover, right? We need Thomas Barefoot to step in here....

Yes, there is a mechanical crossover. Typically the center dome/whizzer is directly attached to the voice coil. Its low frequency response is naturally limited by the size of the radiating surface. The outer cone is attached to the voice coil via some sort of energy absorbing material, such as folded paper or rubber. This rolls off the highs going to the cone. The overall result, in terms of dispersion and phase response, is similar to a dual concentric speaker using a 1st order electrical crossover. However, a "full range" driver is more sensitive to manufacturing inconsistencies, more prone to drift, and more prone to distort.

Thomas

rondr · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2007, 05:53:33 PM »

If you have the time and you are in the mood to build something then check out this link http://www.madisound.com/bk16.html

Cheers!
Ron Rice

Greg Youngman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2007, 06:47:33 PM »

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 11:48

Lowther are not Fostex. That company just sells them both.

You are correct.

Andrew H · « **Reply #18 on:** January 20, 2007, 06:58:50 AM »

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 15:14

I make my own nearfield full range (no x-over) speakers for mixing.

But I would never master on them.

Hi Terry,

can you share any details of the design you are using ? (what driver, enclosure size etc)

Andrew

compasspnt · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:12:57 AM »

Andrew H wrote on Sat, 20 January 2007 06:58

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 15:14

I make my own nearfield full range (no x-over) speakers for mixing.

But I would never master on them.

Hi Terry,

can you share any details of the design you are using ? (what driver, enclosure size etc)

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

I am still debating whether to try to add these to our "for sale" line, or just keep my one or two pair for me and share all information. Will decide soon, as I have a huge two week test coming up next week.

So far, they react quite differently to various amplifiers, so I wouldn't want someone else to get something and then couple it to an inadequate amplifier and not like it. We may do more tweaks after or during this test.

Regards.

brett · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2007, 05:06:55 AM »

Tomas Danko wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 18:56

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 17:43

Tomas Danko wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 11:58

This reminds me. One week to deadline, I HAVE to hook up my trusty old Auratone's before we do the final mix sessions. And no two ways about it.

I have yet to find any other speaker to deliver the state of the balance between the music and vocals as well as the 5C cube's.

A company called "Avantone" has actually reissued the 5C SC's -
http://www.avantelectronics.com/AVANTONE_mixcubes.htm
- with most users saying they are very close to the original.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

They seem to be well made.

I'm happy to have a pair of old Auratone's in great condition. They were from the old ABBA studio Polar. But should they ever fail or start to sound bad it's a good thing to know perhaps there is an alternative in the future, because I really find these speakers very useful indeed.

Cheers,

Tomas Danko

They are well made. Best $169 I ever spent. The used blown out and falling apart Auratones are still fetching $500 on ebay....WHAT???? Are you people high? Who would pay that much money for an old box with an old worn out driver is beyond me. The Avantones do exactly what you described the 5C to do. I had holes in my mixes at the low mids and on the Avantones I can hear why.

The great thing about wide range small speakers is they do not fatigue my ears at all. I use them to track and to arrange. They can be kept at low volume too. Then go to the mid feilds for mixing after the balance is right on these. I am adding stereo subs. i may not even need my other monitors except to check the high end.

What do you guys think about adding a tweeter on top of an auratone, like those super tweeters. Could the cross over be played with to line up with the auratone's 17khz roll off and the sub set to come in under the 90HZ rolloff.

Tomas Danko · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2007, 06:34:03 AM »

brett wrote on Sun, 21 January 2007 10:06

Tomas Danko wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 18:56

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 17:43

Tomas Danko wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 11:58

This reminds me. One week to deadline, I HAVE to hook up my trusty old Auratone's before we do the final mix sessions. And no two ways about it.

I have yet to find any other speaker to deliver the state of the balance between the music and vocals as well as the 5C cube's.

A company called "Avantone" has actually reissued the 5C SC's -
http://www.avantelectronics.com/AVANTONE_mixcubes.htm
- with most users saying they are very close to the original.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

They seem to be well made.

I'm happy to have a pair of old Auratone's in great condition. They were from the old ABBA studio Polar. But should they ever fail or start to sound bad it's a good thing to know perhaps there is an alternative in the future, because I really find these speakers very useful indeed.

Cheers,

Tomas Danko

They are well made. Best $169 I ever spent. The used blown out and falling apart Auratones are still fetching $500 on ebay....WHAT???? Are you people high? Who would pay that much money for an old box with an old worn out driver is beyond me. The Avantones do exactly what you described the 5C to do. I had holes in my mixes at the low mids and on the Avantones I can hear why.

The great thing about wide range small speakers is they do not fatigue my ears at all. I use them to track and to arrange. They can be kept at low volume too. Then go to the mid feilds for mixing after the balance is right on these. I am adding stereo subs. i may not even need my other monitors except to check the high end.

What do you guys think about adding a tweeter on top of an auratone, like those super tweeters. Could the cross over be played with to line up with the auratone's 17khz roll off and the sub set to come in under the 90HZ rolloff.

I know, it's nuts to see worn out Auratone speakers on the net for $300 over here. When Polar studios closed I got to check out their entire stock of Auratone and picked a pair that was in great condition. Barely used, great sounding. The rest were bought by national radio. Some of them looked very bad, and probably sound like crap.

It's very good to know there is a fresh and working alternative, because I don't think I will ever let go of a wide-band solution for monitoring vocal balance. But eventually my Auratone's will crap out.

I think the whole idea is that there is NO tweeter, NO crossover and NO sub. So adding all them things to this concept is pretty moot imho.

I used to have my Auratone speakers hooked up in my living room years ago and found that whenever I wanted to listen to music on low volume they just owned every other speaker set I had. Sounded so much better, so much more musical. And no low end to disturb neighbors.

That's it. I'm installing them again tomorrow!

compasspnt · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2007, 10:40:32 AM »

Brett,

If you start adding components (and thereby, crossovers) to your single-source speakers, are you not, at least in part, defeating the very purpose of them?

Granted, if the crossover points are very high and very low, you would still probably have an advantage in the midrange.

But perhaps a disadvantage on the ends of the spectrum?

Viitalahde · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:27:06 AM »

barefoot wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 19:50

The overall result, in terms of dispersion and phase response, is similar to a dual concentric speaker using a 1st order electrical crossover.

Thanks for the in-depth explanation, Thomas!

I've been checking the datasheets of various Fostex full-range drivers and I'd assume the approximate cross-over point is around where the dispersion starts falls pretty rapidly. A sort of a 1st order cross-over combined with relatively large cone surface area must be a nice recipe for "beaming".

brett wrote on Sun, 21 January 2007 10:06

What do you guys think about adding a tweeter on top of an auratone, like those super tweeters.

I'd imagine it to be a bad idea. I know some people add subwoofers to full-range drivers, but a supertweeter probably gives a "tweeter-woofer" -sound when the lower treble resolution & dispersion doesn't quite meet with the supertweeter.

I'd search for the best sounding compromise of a full-range driver and build a pair around it.

I think some people use notch filters as a "cross-over" to tame the response a little.

EP · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:20:44 PM »

I am involved with a loudpeaker company and I showed a couple of pre-production models at this past CES.

Our focus is on a line of co-ax monitors, but brought along a 'single-driver' for the show too. I admit their sound is seductive, but they simply don't give the same level of accuracy that our co-ax does. For mixing and editing long hours at a time the single-driver might very well be my choice. I simply can't imagine mastering on them.

The single-driver concept is popular, and it has a place, so we considered releasing it first. In the end we decided to roll out the two/three-way system first and do the single-driver a little later on.

Another .02 to throw in the discussion.

Cheers,

Erik

compasspnt · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2007, 01:17:42 PM »

Any 'Net link, Erik?

EP · « **Reply #26 on:** January 22, 2007, 12:04:44 PM »

compasspnt wrote on Sun, 21 January 2007 18:17

Any 'Net link, Erik?

We are still getting the website design finished. Here is a link to a picture of the pre-production 8" co-ax monitor we showed: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/ces2007/olsher/page2.htm scroll down to second picture, me with the cheesy grin Very Happy

In reality, we are rolling out our top-line system this spring, then the smaller two-way (similar to the one showed) next fall or so, and the single driver.....we'll see.

Cheers,

Erik

barefoot · « **Reply #27 on:** January 22, 2007, 01:59:44 PM »

Viitalahde wrote on Sun, 21 January 2007 08:27

I've been checking the datasheets of various Fostex full-range drivers and I'd assume the approximate cross-over point is around where the dispersion starts falls pretty rapidly. A sort of a 1st order cross-over combined with relatively large cone surface area must be a nice recipe for "beaming".

I'm not sure where the crossover points are. However, it doesn't matter much unless they are very high. The cone horn-loads the "tweeter". And this horn-loading will dominate the tweeter's off-axis response well up to about 10kHz. So the 1kHz-10kHz dispersion of a full-range or coaxial speaker will typically be narrower than a non-coincident system. Of course, some designers prefer narrower dispersion. They even put horns on non-coincident tweeters. Personally, I disagree with this approach. I find the off-axis characteristics highly important to translation. And I want engineers to simply "step into" my monitors with as little mental compensation as possible. For me, horn-loading doesn't fit this equation.

Thomas

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Author Topic: Full-range speakers (..or wide-range..) (Read 10607 times)