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Author Topic: guitar cab micing  (Read 7479 times)

bryanarchy

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2007, 02:16:30 am »

I'm a little late on this one, but if you're gonna give people advice on how to get guitar tones, i would keep it as simple and clear as you can.

Everyone has suggested great ways to get amazing tones, but sometimes multiple mics, multiple cabs, multiple amps, etc may not always be practical or possible. What's worse, is if you're getting people with too many mics on a cab with phasing issues and in the end it all just sounds cruddy. Multiple micing techniques in the hands of hobby recordists can be a disaster.

If someone asked me about a hassle free way to get tone, i'd just tell them to take the grill off the amp and place a sm57 an inch off, parallel to the cone, halfway between the dust cover and the edge. Then tell them to move it either closer to the dust cover or the edge to taste. I know this isn't the most pleasing tone to all of our ears, but it's good enough that if the tone coming out of the amp is good, that this mic placement will work and give a decent representation of the amp's tone. The other thing is that i'm sure that most of us are so familiar with the way that 57's act, it's easy enough to eq and mix it so it sounds presentable.

Like i said, this isn't the most ideal way to record guitars, but it yields predictable and decent results.The main point of this mic setup is that it's hard to screw up and it's achievable by even the biggest of idiot. Yeah, i know i'm cursing myself making that statement...

From here, anything that is done can only improve the tones. If they're brave (well, not that brave) they can add a mic somewhere in the room that sounds pleasing. If the people have a nice mic to use, then all the better. If they have decent preamps, yay! If they want to experiment with more mics on the speakers, cool. Just reinforce to them that you need one USABLE track of guitar and the rest is gravy that will be added for flavoring.

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Vladislavs Korehovs

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2007, 05:20:51 pm »

Hi, iCombs,

Thanks, it can be interesting to hear, really.
Especially separate mics.
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rankus

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2007, 10:30:35 pm »

iCombs wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 15:06



I've been working with this emo band on and off for a year or so... ~SNIP~ If you want to to dissonance with distortion, you'd probably do better to use a couple notes rather than a big open gross chord.  These guys don't get that at all.




LOL!  Ian,  Yesterday I spent about an hour with an emo guitarist trying to get her to either play power chords or turn down the distortion!!!   Full arms length acoustic style (all six strings) strumming on completely dissonant chords, and gain knob on stun.... Small world!

(In the end we managed to come to a compromise:  I turned the gain (distortion) down to almost nil and she strummed away gleefully....  Problem was this is a great song... otherwise I would just use the force to block her out mentally (That's what headphones are for right?... turn em off... put em on!) (then smile and nod in time with the music)
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Vladislavs Korehovs

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2007, 02:41:42 am »

rankus wrote on Mon, 15 January 2007 21:30

iCombs wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 15:06



I've been working with this emo band on and off for a year or so... ~SNIP~ If you want to to dissonance with distortion, you'd probably do better to use a couple notes rather than a big open gross chord.  These guys don't get that at all.




LOL!  Ian,  Yesterday I spent about an hour with an emo guitarist trying to get her to either play power chords or turn down the distortion!!!   Full arms length acoustic style (all six strings) strumming on completely dissonant chords, and gain knob on stun.... Small world!

(In the end we managed to come to a compromise:  I turned the gain (distortion) down to almost nil and she strummed away gleefully....  Problem was this is a great song... otherwise I would just use the force to block her out mentally (That's what headphones are for right?... turn em off... put em on!) (then smile and nod in time with the music)



If it is just Plain Power Chord, i think you can use Sample?
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iCombs

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2007, 11:57:36 am »

Alright gents...I singled out some stuff, and I think I've probably provided more info than you asked for!

http://www.lightspeedgroup.biz/Lightspeed%20Group%20file%20t ransfer/ProSoundWeb/

You'll find samples of the guitar soloed but with all 4 mics up, a solo track of each mic, and a snippet of the whole track.  Note: in the heavy section, there are only 2 guitars going.

Thoughts?  Comments?  Cries of heresy?
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el duderino

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2007, 12:07:09 pm »

I usually use a 57 and a 421. Although the album im working on now I used those along with a 121. (First time with a 121 and I loved it). All 3 mics about 4" back off the cone all lined up next to each other evenly (but not touching). then blend.

What I really like to do, aside from having a choice in guitars and amps, is use a couple amps at the same time. The last record I did we used an Orange combo and a Rivera most of the time, but a mesa head into a marshall 4x10 with an AC30 along side was substitued sometimes or used for a double.

i think different yet complementary guitar tones are what does it. They fit together in interesting ways. That said, I'd LOVE to get a deciever.

Rock gtrs are one of those things where I feel you either need to call in alot of favors and borrow amps from everyone you know or you choose to go to a studio because they have a ton of amps. otherwise throw a 57 in front of your amp, turn the distortion down (most likely), do a double and move on.
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rankus

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2007, 02:16:47 pm »

iCombs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 08:57

Alright
Thoughts?  Comments?  Cries of heresy?


Sounds great Ian.  I  only listened to the "in context" and "mixed" mp3's... I would probably do a very subtle mid scoop perhaps -1 or -2 db ... but it could be my home monitoring setup that I listened on.

PS: Heresy!  
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iCombs

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2007, 03:06:28 pm »

I should also point out that both guitar tracks were a well-modified Les Paul Studio (probably the heaviest sounding LP I've ever heard or played) into a one-of-a-kind Soldano SLO with KT66's and into a Soldano cab loaded with V30's.

Having a great source is kinda like cheating, but it doesn't get you in trouble.
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Ian Combs
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Vladislavs Korehovs

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2007, 04:25:14 pm »

Hello Gents,

Some heresy form a gent:

I would like to share my reference for guitar recording.
i have listened to your tracks and it seems what this is "harsh", sorry of cause. Personally i don't like those grainy recordings... really don't

I don't know why you have this harshness, i don't know your gear.
Probably you have some solid state chain there or something.
i think what even separate mics have it.
Regarding your doubling, i still feel "space monkey" effect, especially on fadeout. i also think you have too much low mids.

This refernce comes from well know book.
I don't know which mic they used, all i know it is Marshal head and Mesa head. And i also know what they HAVEN't used more then ONE, EIN, UNO mic to peack each amp.

i have volume compensated thease tracks to make it comparable with yours..

Record guitar like this - become a star:)
All i can tell you: Many micks is wrong direction, notice how this amps complement each other frequency wise? you won't be able to get something like this with many mics on the same track...
What you will get is a frequency fighting and space monkey.
And with different amps it is possible to do much better, simply because: Each amp have different frequency formant!

Also notice how comping was made...this is something to write down..

http://download.yousendit.com/A110FBA218B8896D

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Iain Graham

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2007, 04:36:19 pm »

I bought a pair of Royer 121s last summer, and they go up whenever I can use em. Coupled with an Audix I5, and a DI feed for Amp Farm.

I'll set the Royer up as close as I can get it to the cone (shock mount gets in the road), and then match the I5's diaphragm position with that of the royer as best as I can. If I get it wrong, I'll move til it's right.

Amp Farm just adds an option later, although it can be good to add to the real thing.

I've been known to filter all the low end out of the I5 and use just enough of it to brighten the royer without using an EQ,

If I'm doing live off the floor (royers on overheads), I'll use a 414, maybe with an I5. I've got 414s on all my live specs for guitars as well.
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Iain Graham

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iCombs

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2007, 06:48:16 pm »

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25

Hello Gents,

Some heresy form a gent:

I would like to share my reference for guitar recording.
i have listened to your tracks and it seems what this is "harsh", sorry of cause. Personally i don't like those grainy recordings... really don't

I don't know why you have this harshness, i don't know your gear.
Probably you have some solid state chain there or something.
i think what even separate mics have it.
Regarding your doubling, i still feel "space monkey" effect, especially on fadeout. i also think you have too much low mids.

This refernce comes from well know book.
I don't know which mic they used, all i know it is Marshal head and Mesa head. And i also know what they HAVEN't used more then ONE, EIN, UNO mic to peack each amp.

i have volume compensated thease tracks to make it comparable with yours..

Record guitar like this - become a star:)
All i can tell you: Many micks is wrong direction, notice how this amps complement each other frequency wise? you won't be able to get something like this with many mics on the same track...
What you will get is a frequency fighting and space monkey.
And with different amps it is possible to do much better, simply because: Each amp have different frequency formant!

Also notice how comping was made...this is something to write down..

http://download.yousendit.com/A110FBA218B8896D




I'm not sure what exactly you mean by space monkey effect.  I do know what you mean about mixing amps, though.  Normally I try to at least put up a different cab for overdubs, but really, that guitar sound kicked my ass so hard that I just doubled up...if that's worth anything.  Also, I didn't WANT to get the sound of different amps.  This is from a band that only has one guitar player, and I wanted to maintain some of that unity (even though I played one of the guitar parts).  

I don't in any way mean to say that you don't raise valid points, because you do...there are a million and a half good examples of a guitar recorded with a single mic.  There are also a lot of good examples of guitars amps recorded with up to a half-dozen mics...if I had a ribbon, you could bet it would be up with all my other mics, and that (at least for really big rock guitars like these), I'd be using it with at least a couple others.
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Ian Combs
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redfro

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2007, 12:19:26 am »

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25

Hello Gents,

Some heresy form a gent:

I would like to share my reference for guitar recording.
i have listened to your tracks and it seems what this is "harsh", sorry of cause. Personally i don't like those grainy recordings... really don't

I don't know why you have this harshness, i don't know your gear.
Probably you have some solid state chain there or something.
i think what even separate mics have it.
Regarding your doubling, i still feel "space monkey" effect, especially on fadeout. i also think you have too much low mids.



It's funny you say that, cause the sample you posted sounds kinda thin to me.

But it's all about how it works in the song. I didn't find anything wrong with Ian's sounds...in context they work fine.

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25


This refernce comes from well know book.
I don't know which mic they used, all i know it is Marshal head and Mesa head. And i also know what they HAVEN't used more then ONE, EIN, UNO mic to peack each amp.

i have volume compensated thease tracks to make it comparable with yours..

Record guitar like this - become a star:)
All i can tell you: Many micks is wrong direction, notice how this amps complement each other frequency wise? you won't be able to get something like this with many mics on the same track...
What you will get is a frequency fighting and space monkey.
And with different amps it is possible to do much better, simply because: Each amp have different frequency formant!

Also notice how comping was made...this is something to write down..

http://download.yousendit.com/A110FBA218B8896D




While I agree that in most cases the single mic technique is best, if you're going for big rock guitars you sometimes need to go for more. And if you are careful you can avoid most phasing issues, or at least get them to work for you.

http://royerlabs.com/photos/rec_tips/el_gtr/elgtr_session_photos/DevilDriver1_LG.jpg

This is what Ross did for the Devil Driver guitars, and you can't say that isn't a good heavy guitar sound.

But,as always, YMMV...


PS...am I the only guy who hates the Masa Dual Rectifier sound?


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Vladislavs Korehovs

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2007, 02:44:12 am »

redfro wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 23:19

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25

Hello Gents,

Some heresy form a gent:

I would like to share my reference for guitar recording.
i have listened to your tracks and it seems what this is "harsh", sorry of cause. Personally i don't like those grainy recordings... really don't

I don't know why you have this harshness, i don't know your gear.
Probably you have some solid state chain there or something.
i think what even separate mics have it.
Regarding your doubling, i still feel "space monkey" effect, especially on fadeout. i also think you have too much low mids.



It's funny you say that, cause the sample you posted sounds kinda thin to me.

But it's all about how it works in the song. I didn't find anything wrong with Ian's sounds...in context they work fine.

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 15:25


This refernce comes from well know book.
I don't know which mic they used, all i know it is Marshal head and Mesa head. And i also know what they HAVEN't used more then ONE, EIN, UNO mic to peack each amp.

i have volume compensated thease tracks to make it comparable with yours..

Record guitar like this - become a star:)
All i can tell you: Many micks is wrong direction, notice how this amps complement each other frequency wise? you won't be able to get something like this with many mics on the same track...
What you will get is a frequency fighting and space monkey.
And with different amps it is possible to do much better, simply because: Each amp have different frequency formant!

Also notice how comping was made...this is something to write down..

http://download.yousendit.com/A110FBA218B8896D




While I agree that in most cases the single mic technique is best, if you're going for big rock guitars you sometimes need to go for more. And if you are careful you can avoid most phasing issues, or at least get them to work for you.

http://royerlabs.com/photos/rec_tips/el_gtr/elgtr_session_photos/DevilDriver1_LG.jpg

This is what Ross did for the Devil Driver guitars, and you can't say that isn't a good heavy guitar sound.

But,as always, YMMV...


PS...am I the only guy who hates the Masa Dual Rectifier sound?




Well it is not thin at all..
It makes much more more harmonics in upper spectrum... Which is very important.
You think what iCommbs sound feels thicker (maYBE havier) because you just have more lomids there... But Most of time you will use lomids from Base...  So if you have base - use it.
and it is more dense with even 2 tracks vs 4 tracks.
It sounds MELLOW, which is much warmer which is very important.
Space monkey are phasing issues. Then Comb filtering occurs, it sounds like monkeys in a space... well like you put pressure on a steal thing what is going to break...

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iCombs

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2007, 03:42:06 am »

[quote title=redfro wrote on Tue, 16 January 2007 23:19]
Quote:


PS...am I the only guy who hates the Masa Dual Rectifier sound?



Nope.  For that matter, I'm not a fan of new Marshall, either.  Give me Bogner any day.  Although I did have really good luck with a Mesa Single Rec combo (into a 4x12 with Greenbacks) as a counterpart to that Soldano.  It did this great midrange thing that filled in that big wide Soldano.  But on it's own...um...it was okay...
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Ian Combs
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iCombs

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Re: guitar cab micing
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2007, 03:50:30 am »

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 01:44

Well it is not thin at all..
It makes much more more harmonics in upper spectrum... Which is very important.
You think what iCommbs sound feels thicker (maYBE havier) because you just have more lomids there... But Most of time you will use lomids from Base...  So if you have base - use it.


I'm just going to go back to what I said before...I got the sound I was looking for in this situation.  I wanted the guitars to have an exaggerated sense of bottom end so that the palm muting would stand out correctly, and so that the guitars sounded BIG.  And it's not just coming from the low mids...it's the fact that 1-2kHz isn't all up in your face grinding away making the guitars sound honky...it's that the RE20 in back captures room ambience and adds a sense of depth that the close mics simply can't, and to add the low end from the back of the amp cabinet resonating.  It's a combination of a lot of things that made that particular sound.  It is probably the best hard rock guitar sound I've recorded to date.  And I'm going to try to do it again pretty soon.  

I understand completely what you are saying about one carefully positioned microphone.  I do that, as well.  I've done it before and I'll continue to do it...but nine times out of ten, there is no one mic that gets me the sound I want to hear.  And if I've gotten the sound I hear in the room to come through my monitors, then I've done it "right," regardless of any engineering rules or maxims.
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Ian Combs
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"Mista apareeatah... can I have maar beass at all frequencies?"
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