R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Need an opinion on a small live room acoustics plan (3D sketch included)  (Read 21973 times)

woodnote

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Real Full Name: Thomas Vedder

Hi, i have a 3 x 3 meters room, and i want to turn it into a live recording room (just for recording, not mixing). i know the room size is bad and its kind of a cube, but thats what i got. also, unfortunately the closet you see must stay there.
all of the acoustic treatment is going to be DIY.

the room is going to be used for acoustic guitar and vocals.

the things you see on the walls with the horizontal lines represent QRD 1 dimensional deiffusers, and the other ones are rockwool absorbers. the diffusers would be with a design frequency of about 700-900Hz.

what do you think about the diffusers? will it help or am i better off with more absorbers instead? also, i can add more absorbers to this plan.

here are the sketches:



Logged

Thomas@Northward

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Real Full Name: Thomas Jouanjean

You should check the modal response with one of the many online tools ... It may well be that the main resonances in a 3/3 room are just in the middle of the lower voice frequencies. In that case, you'll have no other choice but heavily treat the room.
Logged
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs.
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
Pro Audio Partners:
ATC Professional Loudspeakers
FOCAL Professional Loudspeaker
AMC Mecanocaucho Systems

woodnote

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Real Full Name: Thomas Vedder

You should check the modal response with one of the many online tools ... It may well be that the main resonances in a 3/3 room are just in the middle of the lower voice frequencies. In that case, you'll have no other choice but heavily treat the room.

On another forum someone suggested that the best treatment for this kind of room is tuned slot walls on two adjacent walls and absorption the other two (after testing for the needed frequencies). do you think the same? i just wanna get another opinion.
Logged

boggy

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 68
  • Real Full Name: Bogic Petrovic
  • There is no spoon...

I agree with Thomas, you may heavily treat your room, if you find recordings unacceptable from this room without treatment.
After heavy treatment, if you still need some liveliness in your recordings use binary diffusers over your heavy absorption treatment.
Logged

woodnote

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Real Full Name: Thomas Vedder

I agree with Thomas, you may heavily treat your room, if you find recordings unacceptable from this room without treatment.
After heavy treatment, if you still need some liveliness in your recordings use binary diffusers over your heavy absorption treatment.

What are binary diffusers? i only heard of QRD 1 and 2 dimensional diffusers. what makes the binary ones suitable for my situation?
Logged

boggy

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 68
  • Real Full Name: Bogic Petrovic
  • There is no spoon...

What are binary diffusers? i only heard of QRD 1 and 2 dimensional diffusers. what makes the binary ones suitable for my situation?






1D binary diffusers are usually formed with slats mounted over absorptive surface. They may be useful to bring some liveliness in room that become too dead to someone's taste, because (necessary) low frequency absorption. I use MLS (a pseudorandom sequence) for their positioning, as you can see on attached pictures:


Ceiling:





Walls and ceiling:




There are a different and more complicated construction described in our white paper about MyRoom acoustic design where air-transparent diffusers, based on Manfred Schroeder design, are fundamental part, this is a better solution but also more expensive.

And yes, available commercial 2D binary diffusers are BAD panels from RPG inc.

I repeat, they are needed IF you like more liveliness in your recordings after you make your room sounding "dead" because low frequency treatment.
But if you find your recordings acceptable, even in (possibly) too "dead" room, you don't need any diffusers.
Logged

woodnote

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Real Full Name: Thomas Vedder

1D binary diffusers are usually formed with slats mounted over absorptive surface. They may be useful to bring some liveliness in room that become too dead to someone's taste, because (necessary) low frequency absorption. I use MLS (a pseudorandom sequence) for their positioning, as you can see on attached pictures:

There are a different and more complicated construction described in our white paper about MyRoom acoustic design where air-transparent diffusers, based on Manfred Schroeder design, are fundamental, this is a better solution but also more expensive.

And yes, available commercial 2D binary diffusers are BAD panels from RPG inc.

I repeat, they are needed IF you like more liveliness in your recordings after you make your room sounding "dead" because low frequency treatment.
But if you find your recordings are acceptable even in (possibly) too "dead" room, you don't need any diffusers.

Cheers

Boggy

Ok. but does these diffusers need to be tuned (designed) for the problematic frequencies in the room, or is there a standard? if yes, how do i do that? what part of the diffuser is dependent on the problematic frequency (fin width, well width, well depth)?

also, whats the advantage of these diffusers over QRD diffusers, are they better for small rooms (no minimum sitting distance)?
Logged

boggy

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 68
  • Real Full Name: Bogic Petrovic
  • There is no spoon...

Ok. but does these diffusers need to be tuned (designed) for the problematic frequencies in the room, or is there a standard?
No needs for precise tuning, however, they can't target your problematic frequencies in this room, they are only needed to bring back some liveliness in your room and not affect your low frequency absorption.
I use slats from 1"-2", and gap between slats is from 1/8" to 1/4". Slat thickness is from 1/8"-1/2". Slats are (always) wooden.
if yes, how do i do that? what part of the diffuser is dependent on the problematic frequency (fin width, well width, well depth)?
Slat width define maximum affected frequency for diffusion. Effect of diffusion is pretty weak and you don't really need to take care about any calculations.
Use some MLS pseudorandom sequence, if you don't have one, I can post it here.
also, whats the advantage of these diffusers over QRD diffusers, are they better for small rooms (no minimum sitting distance)?
Advantage is cost (they are cheaper), and construction (easier to build).
They are usually constructed with thin slats (they don't go too low with difusion), then there isn't a real problem with minimum sitting distance.
Binary diffusers can make a pleasant listening experience in the room, but they aren't a diffusers with "spectacular" diffusing characteristics.
Logged

woodnote

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Real Full Name: Thomas Vedder

No needs for precise tuning, however, they can't target your problematic frequencies in this room, they are only needed to bring back some liveliness in your room and not affect your low frequency absorption.
I use slats from 1"-2", and gap between slats is from 1/8" to 1/4". Slat thickness is from 1/8"-1/2". Slats are (always) wooden.Slat width define maximum affected frequency for diffusion. Effect of diffusion is pretty weak and you don't really need to take care about any calculations.
Use some MLS pseudorandom sequence, if you don't have one, I can post it here.Advantage is cost (they are cheaper), and construction (easier to build).
They are usually constructed with thin slats (they don't go too low with difusion), then there isn't a real problem with minimum sitting distance.
Binary diffusers can make a pleasant listening experience in the room, but they aren't a diffusers with "spectacular" diffusing characteristics.

Oh so there are no "wells" i just put the wood stripes on top the absorption?
Logged

woodnote

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Real Full Name: Thomas Vedder

Oh so there are no "wells", i just put the wood stripes on top the absorption?
Logged

boggy

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 68
  • Real Full Name: Bogic Petrovic
  • There is no spoon...

Oh so there are no "wells" i just put the wood stripes on top the absorption?


Yes :)
Logged

woodnote

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Real Full Name: Thomas Vedder
Logged

boggy

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 68
  • Real Full Name: Bogic Petrovic
  • There is no spoon...

Thanks!


NP,
part of MLS sequence we use:

Code: [Select]
position:126 ***** 1
position:125 ***** 0
position:124 ***** 0
position:123 ***** 0
position:122 ***** 0
position:121 ***** 0
position:120 ***** 0
position:119 ***** 1
position:118 ***** 0
position:117 ***** 0
position:116 ***** 0
position:115 ***** 0
position:114 ***** 0
position:113 ***** 1
position:112 ***** 1
position:111 ***** 0
position:110 ***** 0
position:109 ***** 0
position:108 ***** 0
position:107 ***** 1
position:106 ***** 0
position:105 ***** 1
position:104 ***** 0
position:103 ***** 0
position:102 ***** 0
position:101 ***** 1
position:100 ***** 1
position:099 ***** 1
position:098 ***** 1
position:097 ***** 0
position:096 ***** 0
position:095 ***** 1
position:094 ***** 0
position:093 ***** 0
position:092 ***** 0
position:091 ***** 1
position:090 ***** 0
position:089 ***** 1
position:088 ***** 1
position:087 ***** 0
position:086 ***** 0
position:085 ***** 1
position:084 ***** 1
position:083 ***** 1
position:082 ***** 0
position:081 ***** 1
position:080 ***** 0
position:079 ***** 1
position:078 ***** 0
position:077 ***** 0
position:076 ***** 1
position:075 ***** 1
position:074 ***** 1
position:073 ***** 1
position:072 ***** 1
position:071 ***** 0
position:070 ***** 1
position:069 ***** 0
position:068 ***** 0
position:067 ***** 0
position:066 ***** 0
position:065 ***** 1
position:064 ***** 1
position:063 ***** 1
position:062 ***** 0
position:061 ***** 0
position:060 ***** 0
position:059 ***** 1
position:058 ***** 0
position:057 ***** 0
position:056 ***** 1
position:055 ***** 0
position:054 ***** 0
position:053 ***** 1
position:052 ***** 1
position:051 ***** 0
position:050 ***** 1
position:049 ***** 1
position:048 ***** 0
position:047 ***** 1
position:046 ***** 0
position:045 ***** 1
position:044 ***** 1
position:043 ***** 0
position:042 ***** 1
position:041 ***** 1
position:040 ***** 1
position:039 ***** 1
position:038 ***** 0
position:037 ***** 1
position:036 ***** 1
position:035 ***** 0
position:034 ***** 0
position:033 ***** 0
position:032 ***** 1
position:031 ***** 1
position:030 ***** 0
position:029 ***** 1
position:028 ***** 0
position:027 ***** 0
position:026 ***** 1
position:025 ***** 0
position:024 ***** 1
position:023 ***** 1
position:022 ***** 1
position:021 ***** 0
position:020 ***** 1
position:019 ***** 1
position:018 ***** 1
position:017 ***** 0
position:016 ***** 0
position:015 ***** 1
position:014 ***** 1
position:013 ***** 0
position:012 ***** 0
position:011 ***** 1
position:010 ***** 0
position:009 ***** 1
position:008 ***** 0
position:007 ***** 1
position:006 ***** 0
position:005 ***** 1
position:004 ***** 1
position:003 ***** 1
position:002 ***** 1
position:001 ***** 1
position:000 ***** 1
Logged

woodnote

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Real Full Name: Thomas Vedder


NP,
part of MLS sequence we use:

Code: [Select]
position:126 ***** 1
position:125 ***** 0
position:124 ***** 0
position:123 ***** 0
position:122 ***** 0
position:121 ***** 0
position:120 ***** 0
position:119 ***** 1
position:118 ***** 0
position:117 ***** 0
position:116 ***** 0
position:115 ***** 0
position:114 ***** 0
position:113 ***** 1
position:112 ***** 1
position:111 ***** 0
position:110 ***** 0
position:109 ***** 0
position:108 ***** 0
position:107 ***** 1
position:106 ***** 0
position:105 ***** 1
position:104 ***** 0
position:103 ***** 0
position:102 ***** 0
position:101 ***** 1
position:100 ***** 1
position:099 ***** 1
position:098 ***** 1
position:097 ***** 0
position:096 ***** 0
position:095 ***** 1
position:094 ***** 0
position:093 ***** 0
position:092 ***** 0
position:091 ***** 1
position:090 ***** 0
position:089 ***** 1
position:088 ***** 1
position:087 ***** 0
position:086 ***** 0
position:085 ***** 1
position:084 ***** 1
position:083 ***** 1
position:082 ***** 0
position:081 ***** 1
position:080 ***** 0
position:079 ***** 1
position:078 ***** 0
position:077 ***** 0
position:076 ***** 1
position:075 ***** 1
position:074 ***** 1
position:073 ***** 1
position:072 ***** 1
position:071 ***** 0
position:070 ***** 1
position:069 ***** 0
position:068 ***** 0
position:067 ***** 0
position:066 ***** 0
position:065 ***** 1
position:064 ***** 1
position:063 ***** 1
position:062 ***** 0
position:061 ***** 0
position:060 ***** 0
position:059 ***** 1
position:058 ***** 0
position:057 ***** 0
position:056 ***** 1
position:055 ***** 0
position:054 ***** 0
position:053 ***** 1
position:052 ***** 1
position:051 ***** 0
position:050 ***** 1
position:049 ***** 1
position:048 ***** 0
position:047 ***** 1
position:046 ***** 0
position:045 ***** 1
position:044 ***** 1
position:043 ***** 0
position:042 ***** 1
position:041 ***** 1
position:040 ***** 1
position:039 ***** 1
position:038 ***** 0
position:037 ***** 1
position:036 ***** 1
position:035 ***** 0
position:034 ***** 0
position:033 ***** 0
position:032 ***** 1
position:031 ***** 1
position:030 ***** 0
position:029 ***** 1
position:028 ***** 0
position:027 ***** 0
position:026 ***** 1
position:025 ***** 0
position:024 ***** 1
position:023 ***** 1
position:022 ***** 1
position:021 ***** 0
position:020 ***** 1
position:019 ***** 1
position:018 ***** 1
position:017 ***** 0
position:016 ***** 0
position:015 ***** 1
position:014 ***** 1
position:013 ***** 0
position:012 ***** 0
position:011 ***** 1
position:010 ***** 0
position:009 ***** 1
position:008 ***** 0
position:007 ***** 1
position:006 ***** 0
position:005 ***** 1
position:004 ***** 1
position:003 ***** 1
position:002 ***** 1
position:001 ***** 1
position:000 ***** 1

There are some stuff i don't understand, can you please explain these to me?

- first of all, i don't know how to read/use this sequence. i read the wiki page but it didn't make it any clearer. does these numbers help me determine the size of the gap between the wood slats? or the wood slats width?

- you said you use slats from 1"-2", did you mean wood slats width?

- you said that the gap between slats is from 1/8" to 1/4", but in the pictures i see slats with almost no gap between them, looks even like their touching each other.

- you said that the slat thickness is from 1/8"-1/2". but in the pictures the thickness seems fixed and equal in all slats.
Logged

boggy

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 68
  • Real Full Name: Bogic Petrovic
  • There is no spoon...

There are some stuff i don't understand, can you please explain these to me?
Yes

- first of all, i don't know how to read/use this sequence. i read the wiki page but it didn't make it any clearer. does these numbers help me determine the size of the gap between the wood slats? or the wood slats width?
For example, "0" mean non-existance of slat (strip), "1" mean existance of slat. You may start from first position (000) and build your diffuser following sequence from 000 to 127. When you finish (and you may finish at any position), you may continue sequence at second absorber.

- you said you use slats from 1"-2", did you mean wood slats width?
yes

- you said that the gap between slats is from 1/8" to 1/4", but in the pictures i see slats with almost no gap between them, looks even like their touching each other.
It is possible to build successfull binary diffuser without gaps, but gaps enables more air circulation, and slightly more expressed slat absorber characteristic.

- you said that the slat thickness is from 1/8"-1/2". but in the pictures the thickness seems fixed and equal in all slats.
Yes and yes. I choose slats thickness from 1/8"-1/2" (something what I can find on the market in some area), and I don't change chosen thickness in one particular binary diffuser... binary diffusers don't have different thickness of slats. To be clear, diffusers of this construction may have different thickness of slats, but they can't be named "binary" anymore.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up