Peter Poyser wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 17:06 |
When I was a boy during science lessons I was taught many scientific laws. Many of these scientific laws strongly supported the views of the religious establishment.
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That doesn't bode well for those laws...
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During the 20th century however, (and I have been around for quite a lot of it), scientists emerged that lacked the religious convictions of their forerunners.
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Unshackled from dogma? Good for them.
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They were excellent at forwarding new theories, but with increasing regularity as the century wore on, could not actually, prove them. Coincidentally, often their theories appeared greatly at odds with the religious establishment. And as their ideas coincided with the spirit of the age, for most people, this did not seem to matter anymore.
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Oh it does matter. But not in the way you seem to believe.
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In an increasingly secular society, this movement thus hastened the rapid demise of the scientific law, as taught in previous generations, in favour of the scientific theory’s we are so familiar with. And scientific theories came to be continually mooted, as if they were the more reliable scientific laws of old. They are not.
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So the old scientific laws that have been proven wrong are more reliable? Or do they fit your religious world view better than the modern ones?
I don't think anyone is claiming that we are at the end of science. I certainly wouldn't agree with such a statement.
But some people seem to want to ban science if it implies that they are less than perfect in some way or if it conflicts with their world views ...
In is in the nature of science itself to keep evolving. Sticking to old ideas because they please us more is as far from science as one can get.
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For when is something ‘scientifically verifiable’?
For according to the science we have today, much of what was, scientific law yesterday, was wrong, if we believe what they tell us.
In truth, and I was always taught that science is the search for truth.
All we can say is that what we understand today, (and often, we really can’t prove it), will need to be greatly amended, and further modified in the future, to accommodate new advances in our understanding. (Or more new theories).
Such is the absolute ludicrously that is often passed off for science, that I am constantly amazed, that no enterprising West End or Broadway writer, has yet written a fast paced plot for an entertaining farce around this potentially hilarious subject matter.
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What is ludicrous about that? Adapting one's ideas in the light of new information is anything but ludicrous unless one is anchored in the passt and refuses to move on.
What is happening though is that as understanding gets deeper and more complex it gets less and less intuitive for the laymen which then feel a need to ridicule that which they can not possibly understand ...
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So you had better face the fact that what you ‘verify’ today, to your absolute satisfaction, will be quickly superseded tomorrow, by far lesser men in every respect, probably.
And any science that chooses to ignore, or fails to take account of, overwhelmingly strong evidence, that is very readily available, will be the first to be surpassed.
If, in a court of law, the police withheld evidence that could undermine their case, against a defendant and this was later discovered by the defence attorneys. Any verdict any against their client, would be likely to be overturned as unsafe. And a re-trial would commence.
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Any scientist worth their salt will be willing to adapt their ideas in light of new discoveries. You are sketching a strawman of the scientifc world and then, with the obvious ease that that entails, are burning it down.
No points for you.
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To exclude users of a device, from a discussion regarding that device,
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Or to exclude the knowledge of psychology and how utterly fallible and influencable the human mind is ...
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or fail to take into account, the many manufacturers whose views, wildly differed, from ones own.
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Or to forget that such manufacturers all have commercial agendas and thus fail to ask for actual scientific explanations for their marketing claims ...
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And then claim one’s own views, as purely being the only view allowable that was to be regarded as scientific technical and verifiable.
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And backing up one's claims with science and maths and being open to any refutation of the maths and science,
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Is clearly preposterous.
It is nonsense.
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Makes perfect sense.
It is the only valid approach in such a discussion.
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I have never believed that Mr Lavry was ever wrong in anything he claimed. He is not. But I have always believed that what he claimed was but a very small part, of a much larger story altogether.
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So where is the rest of the story? So where are the tests that back those sotries up? They are sorely lacking.
Such claims are so easy to make because they don't actually say anything. If you have any solid evidence, any verfiable theories or ideas, please share them.
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That this is the case is overwhelmingly verifiable, by a careful study of his competitor’s products. And who chooses to use them.
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Which could just as well fit in a psychology, sociology or marketing course.
[name dropping snipped]
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In Mr Lavry’s scheme of things, many of these products would never have ever seen the light of day.
Would that be good?
I think not!
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Maybe other products that are not so driven by marketing might have seen the light of day instead.
Would that be good?
Hard to tell as everyone is so bent on fighting against a healthy technical discussion of such things.
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Moreover, if the experts in these top studios, having budgets that enable them to choose more or less whatever they wish. Choose to purchase products that do not accord with the narrow interpretation of the matter, that Mr Lavry’s understanding and insistence demands.
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Arn't these studios populated by human beings? And arn't these studios catering to even more human beings with possibly even less knowledge and experience and even less chance to compare products side by side? And arn't quite a few of those clients reading magazines and drooling over products that they then expect these studios to have without ever even having heard them?
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Surely, in any truly scientific scenario that could be imagined, this important information, the view of real experts that use the equipment on a daily basis, must be taken into account, at some point in the scientific process. If it really is one?
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Sure. But there comes a point where the differences are so small that they are lesser than one's changing perception day to day. So then people make decisions based on entirely different things like mood, looks, price and reputation even if those mental processes are not conscious ones.
You can not claim this to be otherwise without having to explain why so many companies spend so many billions on advertising and marketing if people are so objective about their decisions. (This obviously applies to any field. Not just audio).
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It may not be?
How else could it be scientific without their input?
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Leaving out human psychology would be just as unscientific.
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If it chooses to deliberately ignore all the evidence that is to the contrary?
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But there is no evidence. Show me the repeatable test that show we need 384 Khz converters. On the other hand there are literaly millions of tests and papers that proove without a possible doubt the power of the placebo effect.
All things being equal, the evidence is heavily stacked in favour of trusting measurement above varying subjective opinions.
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Are then all these other manufacturers unscientific in their understanding and approach?
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In their marketing? Yes very often they are!
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I have spent a lot of my life talking with high flying scientific types, but all the ones that were any good, were willing to listen, just as much as I was willing to listen them.
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As far as I can see, Dan Lavry is always willing to listen to anyone that comes with a well constructed argument and some real evidence. Unfortunately, the people opposing usually lack both.
Thanks for the links. More stuff to read.
[Some stuff snipped for brevity]
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But it is nothing short of self delusion to imagine that one designer alone is purely objective and all the others subjective.
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I don't think anyone is claiming that including Mr Lavry himself. That is why it is good to have a place where things can be discussed openly without the influence of marketing. Or at least as little as possible.
There seems to be alot of resistance to that. Are you against it?
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To believe that there is no room for subjectivity here, is plainly wrong.
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No one is claiming that either. The only thing that Mr Lavry didn't want in his forum were subjective opinions about taste because they are not quantifiable. They don't make much sense in dicussing the technicalities.
Also, most people don't feel offended when someone tells them that what they seem to like is a certain level of euphonic distortion. So far I have only seen a very few people that feel personaly attacked by such a comment.
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Alistair Johnston: “If you don't like no non-sense scientific discussions, stay out of such a forums.”
Judging by the slow movement of the forum, this is precisely what many did.
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Yes. That is true. But is that the way to judge the usefullness of a forum? There will always be less designers of gear than their are users of gear. Does that make the technicalities less important? I would say, on the contrary, that makes them even more important.
The only reason this discussion was going on for so long is because some people want to ban what they don't like instead of just changing the channel ...
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Frankly, personally, I always was glad to read any post by Mr Lavry and was only sorry that he could not spare more time than he could, to regularly post. But I have to admit I have heard a few scientists, and indeed technologists talk a barrel load of non-sense in my time. To believe modern science incapable of this is to really believe non-sense.
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Entirely agreed. One should not confuse the scientific method with individuals claiming science or technology to be on their side. Many a people claiming to be scientists are nothing of the sort.
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Science is more than a mere mathematical measurement.
That it may involve such a phenomenon is extremely likely.
That there is more to understand and appreciate in the fullness of the matter is equally likely.
How can it be ‘scientific’ to exclude all the manifold factors, a subject may encompass, and limit discussion to only that which coincides with one particular narrow view point. It is hardly a truly scientific approach.
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That isn't science but who is doing that? Subjective judgement can only go so far as to say that we like the sound of something at which point more technical and scientific approcahes are needed to analyze
why we like something.
No one in their right mind is saying we should choose a certain product over another because some specific aspect of that product measures closer to some theoretical ideal.
What Lavry's forum was about was finding out and discussing how things works. Not taste. There are many other forums where one can discuss taste.
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Don’t tell me science is beyond such things. Our experience of life, informs science. Ask any social scientist.
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Of course it does. Is anyone claiming the opposit?
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“I am reminded of a conversation overheard between Rupert Neve and a young digital designer. The young man said he had invented a new EQ algorithm. “How does it sound?” Rupert asked. There was a long pause and the inventor restated, as if Rupert did not hear him correctly, “….uh….it’s an ALGORITHM”
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I'm sure there are many exmaples of such people that "don't get it" but I fail to see your point in reference to the closure of Dan Lavry's forum.
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It’s important some of you younger guys do grow up you know.
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Stop being condescending. You are projecting all sorts of stuff on to people that isn't being said or thought.
One of the points of Lavry's forum was to stick to the things that could be conveyed and discussed on a forum and stay away from things that are so subjective that every reader would interpet it differently.
It takes a type of mind to read exactly what is written without making all sorts of assumption about the alledged limitation of the originator... You don't seem to have such a mind.
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Maybe you should take the time to
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And maybe you should loose the blaze attitude. Your assumptions are misguided.
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We need transparent audio equipment. Equally we need coloured audio equipment. Taken together these complimentary factors (two sides of the same coin) can achieve a higher, more authentic sounding result than either can ever manage alone. Our experience of music, sound and audio should inform any science that embraces it. The science needs the art. The art needs the science. These are mutually dependant factors. They are like a husband and wife. And as they lovingly embrace each other, their resultant offspring, is the future forward development of the creative species. For that is how we are made. To create. P
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Thanks for stating the obvious. Now, what was your point about Dan Lavry's forum being closed?
You whole post is figthing some paper tiger of your own creation while not addressing the topic of this thread: The closure of Dan Lavry's forum.
Alistair