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Author Topic: can toast add ISRCs?  (Read 5365 times)

xonlocust

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can toast add ISRCs?
« on: November 28, 2006, 12:35:22 PM »

hey all-

my band has our cd at mastering now (yesterday actually - it should be done). for some reason our label/manufacturer (confusing as they are both) wants to add album info after they've recieved the master from our ME.  then he wants to make the *production master* from the master sent by the ME.   when i asked about adding ISRCs (since we forgot about it until the 11th hour), he said "can you find out if toast can add them, if so, i'll add them before making my production master".  every other project i've been involved with had the ME doing everything and as the last, last step.  but is this possible?

so there you have it.

ideas?

thanks!

nk

Sonovo

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2006, 12:48:43 PM »

Not to appear to negative, but if your label/manufacturer is using Toast to cut production masters (and modify other engineer's masters), I'd turn and run screaming as fast as I could. Shocked

Probably not what you wanted to hear.

Anyway, back to your question.

Toast will not allow adding of ISRC info (at least up to v6 Titanium). Jam will, however, and usually comes bundled as part of Toast.

Still, they should contact your ME with the info and have him do it. Really.

Cheers,
Thor



xonlocust wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 14:35

hey all-

my band has our cd at mastering now (yesterday actually - it should be done). for some reason our label/manufacturer (confusing as they are both) wants to add album info after they've recieved the master from our ME.  then he wants to make the *production master* from the master sent by the ME.   when i asked about adding ISRCs (since we forgot about it until the 11th hour), he said "can you find out if toast can add them, if so, i'll add them before making my production master".  every other project i've been involved with had the ME doing everything and as the last, last step.  but is this possible?

so there you have it.

ideas?

thanks!

nk

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xonlocust

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2006, 02:51:41 PM »

cool - thanks for the insight. is that the common consensus round here?

thanks!
nk

bblackwood

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2006, 03:01:03 PM »

Yes - the label should give the ISRCs to the mastering engineer so he can simply include them on the production master - no need handling the data more than necessary...
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Dave Davis

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2006, 03:23:46 PM »

Your label's jacking you around, and jacking around your music.  Most majors have mastering DEPARTMENTS that exist to do the kinds of things you're talking about: last minute clerical changes unrelated to the sound.  Eclipse and other replication software companies make tools for doing just that: editing DDP companion filesets and such to add ISRC/UPC, CD Text, or even E-CD content.  They DO NOT use Toast, or even Jam.  Either of those programs could do the basic chores you mention, but NEITHER has any QC or error checking capability.  So, they can accidentally change the sound or integers representing the sound without leaving a trace.

At the end of the day, if your record sounds bad or different from what you approved, you won't have a leg to stand on with the ME or the plant.  The label has accepted 100% of the responsibility for all problems down the line.  If they screw something up, you'll have to talk them into paying to fix it out of pocket, or pay for repressing yourself, or live with it.

If you have any say in this (and when it comes to delivering production masters artists usually do) just say no to the label guy diddling your bits.  Tell him to spring for $50-100 and have the ME of record do it all, and do it right.  This is not the time or place to cheap-out: a blown production run will cost at least $1000, usually more, and you've probably already spent a few hundred on mastering and who knows how much on recording.  So this is a clear case of penny-wise/pound-foolish.

The label guy may know exactly what he's doing, and be able to deliver a good master with the tools at hand.  Or he may not.  What you know for sure is that he's starting out with the wrong tool for the job (Toast), and has defined his job in a manner at odds with standard industry practice (typically an ME is the guy who makes the production parts, whether it's the ME of record, or a label-employed ME working in a label-owned mastering studio).  I'm sure they'll tell you this is how they've done X many records, and they've never had a problem.  I'll tell you there's always a first time, and Murphy says the closer you are to the drop-deadline the more likely it is to happen!  

-d-
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soundroid

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2006, 12:34:01 AM »

I agree with all those above. DON'T let your label re-burn your master.
If you've gone to all that trouble to get it professionally mastered don't
take the chance of degrading your master by re-importing it back into toast
in order to add ISRC codes. Just call your ME and get he/she to output the master again with the new ISRC codes.  A much better AND safer option.

xonlocust

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2006, 11:51:43 AM »

thanks all for the input - we're having the ME add the ISRCs and CD Text in. it appears that in the past, the ME (who is actually quite reputable) wasn't able to add CD Text, so the label had gotten in the habit of adding in CD Text themselves, then making a 1x burn for production.  after talking to the ME when i brought the issue up, the ME now can do the CD Text and ISRCs, so all's good on that front.  the label has actually been good to us and i believe is well intentioned.  

are there older legacy mastering platforms that didn't do CD Text? this ME has been around a long time, so perhaps one of the first workstations?  my initial reponse was "what sort of caveman system was [the ME] using? it goes to show you it's the ears not the gear..."

i should probably stop asking questions....  thanks for entertaining me here. Smile

Jerry Tubb

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2006, 11:58:37 AM »

xonlocust wrote on Wed, 29 November 2006 10:51

are there older legacy mastering platforms that didn't do CD Text? this ME has been around a long time, so perhaps one of the first workstations?  my initial reponse was "what sort of caveman system was [the ME] using? it goes to show you it's the ears not the gear..."


Probably classic Sonic Solutions (?)

Most CD burners didn't support CD Text until a few years ago.

I think it was in the red book spec all along (?)

JT
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Dave Davis

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2006, 01:43:08 PM »

CD Text has _never_ been part of the Red Book spec (though title sets were part of CD+G).  That's why Sadie and Sonic were never in a big hurry to add it.  Currently there are at least TWO methods for doing this task, although the main one we're familiar with is compatable with the other in glass mastering (Sony used (uses?) a text file in the DDP set to get it done, while the other approach is "yellow book" tagging).

CD Text is largely unsupported, outside the world of car stereo and more recently DVD players, which are generally not connected to the net.  The vast majority of discs replicated DON'T use it, for a number of reasons, but most artists confuse CD Text with CDDB/Gracenote lookup.  The fact is iTunes et al cannot read CD Text at all!  Frequently people gripe to the ME when they insert a CD Text-included CD, and it returns the wrong file names because CDDB has a disc with the same timings already in it!  The other problem is it doesn't support a full ascii character set, nor does it recognize subtleties like capitalization, which is increasingly important as band names and sont titles mirror text-messages.  So, even what it does do, it doesn't do completely or very well.

As time goes on and purely digital files become the norm, CD Text will be even less useful than it is today.  Metadata in files is richer, and more foolproof in practice.  Computers, MP3 players, car stereos and DVD players can already read and display this metadata, and unlike CD Text it actually IS a standard, and supports a full ascii character set.

My least favorite phone call in any given month is explaining all the above to clients who paid for CD Text and are disappointed by how worthless it is.  Increasingly even car players and newer DVD players are relying on metadata and even networks. Generally speaking it's a waste of time and money, and a source of endless irritation, whining and complaint by people who have no idea what it is or how it works.  Sometimes the client gives you a mispelled titles, and his/her bandmate (who wrote the songs) freaks out when the other guy refuses to cop to his error, and the project becomes a big clusterfvck.  All that, for something that fewer than 1 in 10 players can see today, and fewer still will read tomorrow!  Sheesh!

At any rate, your assumptions are backwards.  Your ME was likely using a real mastering system, not Toast or Jam, and until recently real mastering systems didn't support CD Text, because mastering systems follow the spec by design.  CD Text always been a kludge and remains a kludge today, existing mostly in the consumer/prosumer realm, as a means of managing the proliferation of cheapo CD-Rs and burners built into every computer sold.  New versions of the major mastering DAWs support it, but lots of guys aren't keen to dump otherwise productive investments to support something as goofy and useless as CD-Text.  It's a matter of customer demand though, and if your customers demand it, you have to offer it.

Glad to see you're doing it right in the end!

-d-
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Andy Krehm

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2006, 02:23:55 PM »

Dave Davis wrote on Wed, 29 November 2006 13:43

<edit>CD Text is largely unsupported, outside the world of car stereo and more recently DVD players, which are generally not connected to the net.  The vast majority of discs replicated DON'T use it, for a number of reasons, but most artists confuse CD Text with CDDB/Gracenote lookup.  The fact is iTunes et al cannot read CD Text at all!  Frequently people gripe to the ME when they insert a CD Text-included CD, and it returns the wrong file names because CDDB has a disc with the same timings already in it!  The other problem is it doesn't support a full ascii character set, nor does it recognize subtleties like capitalization, which is increasingly important as band names and sont titles mirror text-messages.  So, even what it does do, it doesn't do completely or very well.

As time goes on and purely digital files become the norm, CD Text will be even less useful than it is today.  Metadata in files is richer, and more foolproof in practice.  Computers, MP3 players, car stereos and DVD players can already read and display this metadata, and unlike CD Text it actually IS a standard, and supports a full ascii character set.

My least favorite phone call in any given month is explaining all the above to clients who paid for CD Text and are disappointed by how worthless it is.  Increasingly even car players and newer DVD players are relying on metadata and even networks. Generally speaking it's a waste of time and money, and a source of endless irritation, whining and complaint by people who have no idea what it is or how it works.  Sometimes the client gives you a mispelled titles, and his/her bandmate (who wrote the songs) freaks out when the other guy refuses to cop to his error, and the project becomes a big clusterfvck.  All that, for something that fewer than 1 in 10 players can see today, and fewer still will read tomorrow!  Sheesh!-d-

My experiences are the exact opposite so I'm not sure where all the angst is coming from!

Car stereos, DVD players that play CDs and Real Player on the PC read CD Text so why not cover all the bases.

It takes me 5 minutes to ensure that the titles are correct with the client present and if unattended, I just send them a cut and paste copy of the text from my writing program for them to proof.

I've put CD text on close to 300 albums so far this year and have not one single complaint from a client!

I just explain the difference between CD TEXT and the Gracedata base which takes an additional minute (and I'm billing for the time anyway).

Dave Davis

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2006, 03:13:48 PM »

Wouldn't say angst, at least on my part.  But the client whose paid for CD Text, and doesn't see his song titles has plenty, even after explaining the difference between CD Text and CDDB.  

I don't mind charging for the work, but it's just no fun to explain the same thing repeatedly.  Often clients don't really listen the first time through the conversation - they want what they want and they're certain they know what that is, so my first warnings are treated with pained but polite tolerance.  Later comes the frantic (or worse, accusatory) phone call asking why CD Text doesn't do what it claims to, after which you can hear the wheels turning over the wires - "is he for real, or just bullshitting me?"  Anyway, my bottom line is that it's a half-assed non-format variously supported if at all, that I'm more than happy to offer with that caveat up front.

Good points though we have different perspectives.

-d-
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xonlocust

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2006, 03:45:33 PM »

it certainly is confusing with the multiple formats, but from my perspective, of course i'd like CD Text.  i'd rather have my record covered in as many places as possible. in fact i was talking to my dad last night and he pointed out the latest record with my old band came up with the titles in his car stereo which he thought was super cool, but the record i did before that didn't.  for that reason alone, i think it's good to have CD Text in there - always a bonus to make your parents think what you're doing is cool!

i can see your points dave - if your clients don't fully understand the implications of their moves.  in fact, this very issue applies closely to my band.  before i joined, they already put out a few releases. if you search allmusic/itunes there are listings for Bang Bang, Bang! Bang! and Bang!Bang! - all of which seem to be different entries to the CDDB (and resultingly iTunes). the last full length got tagged as Bang Bang at allmusic

http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=11:f u4gtq1znu45

yet that same release is Bang! Bang! in "Alternative" at iTunes

whereas the previous 2 releases were tagged Bang! Bang! in allmusic

http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:40q3g4jxtvnz

which are Bang!Bang! in "Rock" at iTunes.

obviously with this new release we're trying to figure out how to straighten out the mess if possible.  is there a way to update data already submitted to CDDB so we can consolidate listings?  the band name is tricky since there are other permutations of it out there, but at the same time the band has been around long enough now to have generated some following, that it makes little sense to change the name.

so actually dave, yeah. i hear your frustration.  it's stupid that there are like 5 iterations of data floating around about the band's catalog, and no clear way that i know about how to try and clean up the mess. i don't know who - if anyone - to even be mad at about it! Smile

brad feel free to delete this if we're going too off subject here as this is starting to get pretty specific about my particular situation...

thanks!
nk



soundroid

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2006, 05:47:38 PM »

can someone detail the procedure of adding CDDB/Gracenote,
as simple as it may be?

Ben F

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2006, 06:40:52 PM »

The latest version of iTunes supports CD-text. Sonic Solutions on OSX has a CD-text option (but not ID3 tags), or you can create a JAM image and add CD-text from there. Not a problem with Sequoia- it even has the convienet feature of adding track IDs at the start/end of eack track automatically and calling each ID the object name to make CD text even faster.

It's upto the label or artist to register with the Gracenote database.
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Dave Davis

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Re: can toast add ISRCs?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2006, 07:28:07 PM »

Sadly the only way to fix the database mismatches like that is contact each competing entity directly.  Fortunately most have some mechanism in place to speed the process... Apple's pro encoding tools do it.

Digital files transport the metadata embedded in the audio to varying degrees (weak schemes put it in a header, strong ones like streams, put them in the packets), and are generally a much better solution, provided you control the source files... ie you sell them at MSN or iTMS et al and the cracked copies respect the metadata.  That's a fair sized hole, but not as big as it might seem: when the metadata itself has value, people tend not to keep it around!  In this case, title/artist/dates are uniformly useful to all, and likely to be present, to some extent, in most content.  Think about it: every import/export to your iTunes or WinAmp library have it already!

-d-
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