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Author Topic: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?  (Read 14655 times)

Greg Thompson

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2006, 06:19:42 pm »

  I picked up one of those Parts Express woofers to use as a subkick mic.  Didn't work as well as the NS-10.

I used a Radio Shack dual voice coil 8" speaker into a DI once and it was perfect.  It was *the* sub kick sound.  Actually at the time I was unimpressed, thinking "I can do this with a DBX 120 and not use up a track".  But DBX 120s and digital ITB mixing didn't get along until automatic delay compensation came along.  (that's how long ago it was that I used this particular speaker).  I also haven't found a good plugin simulation of the DBX 120 either.

As far as I know, that Radio Shack woofer is discontinued.

Greg
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wwittman

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2006, 06:34:39 pm »

Podgorny wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 22:11


Have you ever actually tried a subkick?

It really works quite well.


Yes I have, For ME it doesn't "work" quite as "well" as adding as much 50Hz as I need using the desk EQ.


Podgorny wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 22:11

But judging by the fact that you're still using an RE20 on kick, I assume you're not going for that kind of thing.


what kind of thing? Muddy, indistinct? or pointlessly complicated? Twisted Evil

I particularly enjoy the use of the term "STILL using..." as though this is hopelessly out of date.


Podgorny wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 22:11

All I know is, I haven't used a kick drum sample on any rock stuff I've done in the last year.


and I haven't either since about 1990.

Maybe you should try an RE20!


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William Wittman
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Podgorny

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2006, 07:14:23 pm »

wwittman wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 17:34

Maybe you should try an RE20!



Have one, thanks.

Using a speaker outside the kick drum isn't just about adding low end.  It's perfect for picking up the low end vibration of the resonant head, without too much bleed from the rest of the kit.  This means you end up with some the kick's "boom" hanging out after the note, which can be great for a modern rock kick sound.

When I say you're "still using an RE20", I mean that you've chosen a microphone that delivers a particular sound.  If I want a less-hyped, classic sort of sound, it's money.  But then, if I was going for that sound, I probably wouldn't use the subkick either.

I did use an RE20 on kick (no hole) on this track, Two Tone Sam.  It delivered exactly what I wanted.  The problem is, very few of the country or rock/metal artists we record here want that sound.

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"Nobody cares what the impedance is; all they care about is when you can walk into the room, set up a mic, turn the knobs, hit record, and make everybody go 'wow.'"

wwittman

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2006, 08:50:39 pm »

yet that sounds not much like any bass drum on records I make.


It's not like that's the "sound of an RE20" and it won't do anything else.


ALL of the adjectives and descriptions you use for what the 'sub-kick' gives you, seem to equate to more bottom. Which is LOGICAL.

I still say I get the same thing with EQ (and with fewer problems)

how about this?

myspace.com/actionaction
or
myspace.com/threeyearsolder

are these a "modern" bass drum sound to you?
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William Wittman
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Podgorny

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2006, 10:55:27 pm »

wwittman wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 19:50

ALL of the adjectives and descriptions you use for what the 'sub-kick' gives you, seem to equate to more bottom. Which is LOGICAL.

I still say I get the same thing with EQ (and with fewer problems)



You know full well I'm not going to question your ability to get great sounds.  After all, you're William Wittman.

But I contend that utilizing the sound of the drum's resonant head to fill in low end and adding low end via equalization will yield vastly different results.  If you're happy using your methods, then by all means, keep doing what you're doing.  I just think it's borderline arrogant to completely disregard a widely accepted technique, simply because you don't like it.  But then, I guess that's kind of the bread and butter of internet forums, isn't it?

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"Nobody cares what the impedance is; all they care about is when you can walk into the room, set up a mic, turn the knobs, hit record, and make everybody go 'wow.'"

wwittman

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2006, 11:18:11 pm »

Podgorny wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 22:55



You know full well I'm not going to question your ability to get great sounds.  After all, you're William Wittman.

But I contend that utilizing the sound of the drum's resonant head to fill in low end and adding low end via equalization will yield vastly different results.  If you're happy using your methods, then by all means, keep doing what you're doing.  I just think it's borderline arrogant to completely disregard a widely accepted technique, simply because you don't like it.  But then, I guess that's kind of the bread and butter of internet forums, isn't it?




Hey I don't discount at all that YOU like what YOU get for YOU!
After all, you're Podgorny!

Seriously - I don't claim that what I do is "right" and what others do is "wrong" (well, except for the 'choices' of mic pre thing... that's just DUMB Twisted Evil )

The sound of the drum's "resonant head" is picked up by a microphone.
The sub-kick is just a large diaphragm, inefficient microphone.
It's not picking up anything that any other mic doesn't except PERHAPS low bottom (because of its size)
and there again, unless you leave all that bottom...

I'm sorry if you think it arrogant. It's not my intention and I really don't SEE it that way.

I tell people what i do, what I hear, what I think.

It would be disingenuous, at best, to NOT say that I think it's unnecessary... right?
Whether it's "widely accepted" or not.

Honestly, are most records worth copying, sonically, for you?

Think most people's techniques are worthy of investigation and imitation?

There are lots of talented engineers out there... I am by no means saying *I* am any authority on the "right way" to do things (or the only way).
But i do ALSO think there's a LOT of internet follow the leader - and often it's an unknown, untested leader.


If the sub-kick works for you then great!

But that shouldn't be threatened by people who don't like it or see the point in it.

Don't you think opinion is more valuable, on internet forums, than pile-on validation of what you already think?

Hey Ross Hogarth says he doesn't agree with my view on stereo placement of instruments.
Should I be hurt? Challenged?
Is he arrogant to disagree?
Should he keep it to himself?

or is it that when someone I think is talented and experienced says something, I can listen, understand and STILL make my own choices?



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William Wittman
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compasspnt

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2006, 01:22:48 pm »

rankus wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 14:09


The earliest I have heard of using a speaker as a mic was the Beatles when they tried one on Sir Paul's bass ... Dunno what their success was.



99.whatever% of Beatles recordings do NOT have this technique employed.
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wwittman

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2006, 01:44:00 pm »

Yes.
According to Emerick (for what that's worth) it was on Rain and Paperback Writer.

Period.
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William Wittman
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rankus

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2006, 01:55:38 pm »

compasspnt wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 10:22

rankus wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 14:09


The earliest I have heard of using a speaker as a mic was the Beatles when they tried one on Sir Paul's bass ... Dunno what their success was.



99.whatever% of Beatles recordings do NOT have this technique employed.




Thanks Terry.  I was not suggesting this was part of their sound or anything... I was speculating in response to a musing in a post above, wondering who started this idea... Possibly the Beatles/Martin/Emerick ?  (they pretty much get credit for everything else) (even stuff that had been done a decade or more earlier, but that's another thread LOL)

PS:  Thanks William as well.. I will have a listen.
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maxdimario

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2006, 09:04:59 pm »

I think it's quite interesting that it was indeed an NS-10 which was used by whoever it was that invented this technique..

I mean just the kind of thing that everybody feels obliged to have but many keep disconnected and on the floor..



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wwittman

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2006, 01:29:11 am »

Not if you consider Emerick having "invented the technique" on Paul's bass amp.

that certainly wasn't an NS-10 in 1966

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William Wittman
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Duke

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2006, 03:36:27 pm »

Back in the'70's, I assisted Phil Scheir in recording some Bill Withers' tracks at the Record Plant in L.A. The drummer was Russell Kunkel. Phil had him remove the front head from his bass drum and proceeded to attach an Auratone speaker to the rim of the head with four leather straps. Great sound to tape, but I'm certain Russell had a lot to do with the sound.

index.php/fa/3805/0/
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Bruce Hensal

wwittman

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2006, 02:03:10 am »

it WOULD take some extraordinary effort to make Russ Kunkel sound bad.



a drummer I always LOVED recording.
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William Wittman
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Dave Martin

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2006, 08:32:05 am »

wwittman wrote on Sat, 02 December 2006 01:03

it WOULD take some extraordinary effort to make Russ Kunkel sound bad.



Which goes to show you that there WERE some extraordinary effots made in a few of those early 70's recordings! Smile

Not that Russ PLAYED bad, but when I listen to some of those records I have to ask myself, "What WERE they thinking????"
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compasspnt

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Re: Alternatives to NS10 as Mic?
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2006, 08:44:43 am »


I got good sounds out of Russ...but sadly, with mic's.
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