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Author Topic: IMP8 mix discussion.  (Read 8191 times)

cerberus

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2006, 05:11:54 am »

ScotcH wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 13:30

Jeff (cerberus):  Thanks!  I used Tori Amos and Sarah McLachlan as references (all I had on CD), which are obviously very poppy sounding, hence the brightness perhaps?
it is dynamics i refer to, the modernly aggressive edge... and every note seems to want to sell the next note, sell the record, it's never wimpy.  it never let's up... more of a large studio feel than live, imo. so the opposite of what i was going for, but i'm amazed how you made that idea work.

after reading your tori/sarah reference, i just realized!  i would like to have mixed this into a record that sounds like carol king: "you've got a friend".   it didn't occur to me before now, but that is a prime example of this style for me.  so i am an old fart; a lot of us may be.  your mix highlights it, imo.

---
rankus... missing your review of my mix.  thanks.
---
garretg wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 00:56

but the sense of space is confused.
ah. that helps me understand alistair's opinion better. i am starting to think i know exactly where i went wrong... i shouldn't have mixed both the piano and vocal into certain stereo effects i thought might unify or even "glue"  (oh gawd no...) the mix... kind of a weak move for me because it's not my regular style to do stuff like that.    thanks guys.

Quote:

I miss the studio piano sound...
i would like to have heard a full symphony, just like [the phil spector mix of] "the long and winding road" has, although the original glynn johns mix with just paul and his piano still works for me.  (old fart again, i just can't help myself... i really love those ancient records!)  so...i just wanted the whole recording studio thing to be out of this picture... to take what is minimalist and re-enforce it's best features, it's starkness, and lack of pretense.
UnderTow wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 12:33

Actually, like most (european) churches or cathedrals, the walls are made of brick/rock.
that's cool... i heard a one-room church made of oak.  so i should listen to yours and forget my own thoughts on the room and just try to take it as if i didn't hear the raw tracks... then i could probably appreciate your mix better. i suppose that doing our reviews so soon after a mix of the same tracks can tend to tinge one's perspective a bit. (but instant feedback is best for learning, imo.)


jeff dinces

j.hall

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2006, 04:20:18 pm »

rankus wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 20:33

j.hall wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 15:58



, i did a ton of stuff.


Tastefully



thanks!!!!!

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ScotcH

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2006, 12:49:54 am »

Ok guys, here are my comments.  I wrote them as I listened to each track, so it's kind of a ramble as the song goes on.  In general, I point out what jumped out at me, and in most cases it's the "bad" stuff ... it usually takes a lot longer to notice the brilliant details, so keep that in mind as you read!  I did find that a lot of the mixes were much fuller (low-mid) than mine, which does lead me to think that maybe my room is not showing me the low-mids properly (exagerated) :?

I had a great time on this, doing something unconventional for me!  Great learning experience!  In order of submission:


j.hall - Strange resonant low mid fq in the beginning (and other quiet passages) ... result of some boosting?  Definitly more body in both pinao and vocal than my mix.  Nice reverb on the vocals, but I do hear just a tad of "whistling" on some vocal notes.  This could probably be tweaked with some reverve eq.  Overall a great mix!

tigeba - Pinao shifted to right slightly, which is nice, leaves the vocals for the middle.  Was that deliberate?  Maybe just a tad too wet for my taste (maybe the predelay?), but I can't complain too much ... nice mix.  Just noticed the delay when the vocals come back in for the outro. A bit distracting, but not overly so.

TheViking - Nice full piano, with plenty of dynamics ... love it!  I can really feel the keys being hit!  For me, The vocal is too "tubby"  Just feels too round compared to the pinao, which is nice and open.  Also, the delay (predelay?) seems a bit too pronounced ... it sounds too much like a gymnasium to me.

cerberus - Hmmm ... sounds inverted to me, in that the Piano is narrow, and the vocal is wide.  I'm not sure it works for me.  The plosives are a bit too untamed as well.  I do like the tone of the vocal (maybe a touch heavy on the bottom), and the dynamics of the piano!  Sounds a bit dry though ... like a very small room instead of a big open church

garretg - Vocal levels are a bit too uneven ... not sure if that's compression or too much fader riding.  piano starts distant, then seems to come forward, but very subtly.  I like the effect, but maybe it's too subtle almost?  Vocals are a bit too muffled for me (not enough sparkle)

mattrussell - bright full piano, nice.  Vocals very up front and dry (similar to my mix), but fuller sounding ... maybe a bit TOO close?  Vocal has a bit of a harsh edge after listening for a while, though nothing major.

TPolce - I like this one ... The vocal sounds full (I'm starting to think my room is accentuating the mid lows!). 2:50 ... some weird phasing on the vocal?  Not sure what that is.  I'm hearing some kind of slap-back during quiet pinao passages (3:30) as well.  Maybe too much compression on the Pinao.

ATOR - Definitly different!  Creative for sure.  Not to my taste (too much of the pad) but great venture into the unknown :-)  I think it's too eerie for this song though.  Woah ... the doubled line comes out of nowhere (and the timing is off maybe?)  The main content (vocal, piano) sounds nice though, but piano level is a bit low.  The ending is nuts :O

chrisj - low end reverb too much (needs eq on the return? Kinda boomy).  Vocal sounds nice, but a bit too much sizzle (again, on the reverb?) ... the Sssss's are distracting.  Plosives need more control.  Overall nice mix, but the reverb is bugging me somehow!

gatino - The vocal delay is too prominant for me, sounds like a cave.  Piano is a bit low maybe (too compressed?), but it's got a good tone.  The vocal does not seem to "sit" well with the piano.

maxim - Another experiment mix :-)  Some clicky artefacts right at the start.  The vocal is VERY thick.  Sounds like someone is whispering on the left???  Plosives need fixing.  Yup, the chorus vocal is definitly not right, but kuddos for the experiment :-)  Piano level changes in a few spots and jumps out suddenly (2:41).  I suspect what you were after just is not possible without additional tracking, but I can get behind the idea!

rankus - so far so good ... great balance of the tracks.  Might need a high pass (at 30Hz maybe) ... sounds like there is some very low rumble to me??  Need a bit more control of the plosives (2:01).  Good mix, and great dynamics!

rattleyour - Vocal sounds like it's in a well ... very closed in and muddy (but with echo ... does that make sense?  maybe a very deep well, lol).  Defninitly not bright enough for me.  The piano has a good tone, but maybe missing some dynamics?  I can hear the vocal level changin during the climax ... a little too obvious.

UnderTow - Love the piano ... bright and clear.  Vocal is definitly out front, and sounds like a bit much on the bottom for me ... just a bit too thick (it overpowers the piano in some places).  Good aggressive mix.  The vocal may be just a much though.  I like the idea of the delay on the second last line ... timing might be off a bit, but it works!

iCombs - some hiss during the intro (from the room track?).  Vocals are nice and clear ... maybe a bit thin?  The delay is distracting in places.  Good dynamics on the piano!  Good mix, but vocals could go up a bit ... sounds like the singer is behind the piano.  Again, like the delay on the penultimate line ... really punches it (wish I'd though to do that!)

Scotch (hey! That's me!) - I can see how my mix is brighter than most.  Also, very dry (relatively).  In hindsight, I would try out more reverbs to expand the space a bit.  I can also see how more low end would add weight to the track.  Maybe my room is to blame ... new mixing room (to me) and it's as of yet untreated.  This was actually a great excercise, since there aren't 5 guitar tracks to hide behind :-)

fantomas - Piano sounds a bit muffled.  The vocal is a bit too muddy as well ... just too much overall bottom maybe (or not enough top)?  The plosives need more control.  Can definitly hear the mp3 artefacts ... I hesitate to comment since a lot of it may be based on the crapy compression!  The delay timing sounds off to me.

starscream2010 - Can difinitly hear the hammers on the pinao ... nice!  The vocal is huge as well, but not out of place.  Plosives need a bit more control.  I like this mix a lot, though it is very convetional, but agressive (kinda like mine!).  Nice reverb ... very unobtrusive.  During loud passeges and hits there seems to be a weird clanging/ringing on the piano (3:10).  maybe the comression is bringing this out?  Now that I focus on it, it's pretty annoying :-)

Great job everyone, and I look forward to the next "lesson!"
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cerberus

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2006, 01:14:02 am »

jhall... sublime and powerful.  huge and intimate.  present and deep.  i so much like how the piano is wet like rain, like tears,  the vocal is proud, the reverb paints the room.  this one made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.  the vibe feels classic and modern and hyper-present...  i heard a lot of things that i would describe as "evidence of a recording", but still it felt like i was there watching it happen, or the perfomers and room were here. it is the most visual mix i've heard so far. and so far, the best because not only don't i find objectionable flaws, but it lifts me up.

ok, i'll do the others later, it would hardly be fair... now i think my own sucks badly in every way compared to j's;  he painted it like a master. not a poem, or even music, but art.

jeff dinces

TheViking

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2006, 01:23:07 am »

garretg wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 00:56



VIKING: Very solid, professional mix.  great piano sound...  maybe the vocal is a touch high in the mix for my tastes.





Good comment.   It's funny because this issue comes up a lot for me.   Usually when the mix is 'just right' for me, I send it off to master and the vocals seem to get quieter or something.   It happens EVERY TIME.   So, I just got used to a louder blend of Vox in my mixes.   Maybe this is too much, as you've commented.   But I wonder what a healthy dose of vocals is these days?

Anyone else have similar experiences with vocal levels?

Thanks again for all the comments.   This IMP was really awesome and it's great to hear a bunch of different opinions on this stuff.
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ScotcH

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2006, 10:30:23 am »

After re-reading my comments, it seems that I concentrated on technical aspects a lot, with very little comments on "feel" and emotion of the tracks.  I think I just don't have enough experience to discuss that in any meaningful way, other than to say, "this works for me" or "not".  I hope my comments are not overly negative sounding, and that they are useful in some way!
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chrisj

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2006, 10:58:43 am »

cerberus wrote on Sat, 25 November 2006 01:14

jhall... sublime and powerful.  huge and intimate.  present and deep.  i so much like how the piano is wet like rain, like tears,  the vocal is proud, the reverb paints the room.  this one made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.  the vibe feels classic and modern and hyper-present...  i heard a lot of things that i would describe as "evidence of a recording", but still it felt like i was there watching it happen, or the perfomers and room were here. it is the most visual mix i've heard so far. and so far, the best because not only don't i find objectionable flaws, but it lifts me up.

ok, i'll do the others later, it would hardly be fair... now i think my own sucks badly in every way compared to j's;  he painted it like a master. not a poem, or even music, but art.


Can I hand you a towel, there?  Twisted Evil

(I liked J's too, but I'm still waiting to hear what his special purpose was for this IMP)

Tom C

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2006, 02:13:55 pm »

chrisj wrote on Sat, 25 November 2006 16:58


(I liked J's too, but I'm still waiting to hear what his special purpose was for this IMP)


I finally managed to spend a couple of minutes with this mix and
I think that one purpose was to show that less tracks don't mean
less work.
The raw tracks are very good, so it's difficult to get them more
life and vibe without overdoing it.
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maxim

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2006, 05:00:03 pm »

kevin wrote:

"..But I wonder what a healthy dose of vocals is these days?"

thanks for the track, btw

imo, the vocal level varies from style to style, and culture to culture

eg, i like french pop mixes, especially, the blokes, but, compared to australian music, the vocal levels are about 6 db higher on average

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gatino

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2006, 07:57:08 pm »

ScotcH wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 23:49


gatino - The vocal delay is too prominant for me, sounds like a cave.  


my reverb chamber:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/447/tanknh6.png

TANK-FX
Laughing

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mattrussell

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2006, 08:19:09 pm »

TheViking wrote on Sat, 25 November 2006 01:23

garretg wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 00:56



VIKING: Very solid, professional mix.  great piano sound...  maybe the vocal is a touch high in the mix for my tastes.





Good comment.   It's funny because this issue comes up a lot for me.   Usually when the mix is 'just right' for me, I send it off to master and the vocals seem to get quieter or something.   It happens EVERY TIME.   So, I just got used to a louder blend of Vox in my mixes.   Maybe this is too much, as you've commented.   But I wonder what a healthy dose of vocals is these days?

Anyone else have similar experiences with vocal levels?

Thanks again for all the comments.   This IMP was really awesome and it's great to hear a bunch of different opinions on this stuff.


by the words "send it off to master", are you meaning to a mastering engineer or to duplication?  i assume you mean a mastering engineer, but i just want to check.




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TheViking

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2006, 08:22:25 pm »

Yes...   you got me correct there.   Mastering engineer not duplication.   Although, a good discussion could be made on the differences in sonic quality between one duplication company and an other.   I've heard stories...   and I've heard differences.

But for this discussion...   I mean mastering engineer.
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mattrussell

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2006, 08:48:57 pm »

as i'm sure you know well, additional compression, overall EQ and levels will be adjusted by the mastering engineer.  it's his job to do those things and how much he adjusts them is up to you (the mix engineer), the producer and the artist.  a discussion with the mastering engineer is always in order PRIOR to you shipping him the mixes.  

just as a general rule, i usually make the vocal a little louder (+1-1.5) than i know it "should" be in anticipation of masteriing.  this is especially true if i want an "up front vocal" because i know that as compression gets applied to the mix, the vocal will surely drop.  if you want the mix to more or less stay the same in terms of balance, tell the mastering engineer to be careful with it and try not to squish it very much--or at least not enough to basically blow up everything you did.  

if you do your job right and you have a discussion with the mastering engineer prior to he/she touches the mixes, everything should work out.  if it doesn't, that person should be willing to fix it at least once.  to be 100% sure, try to get the client to use someone you know and trust.  no matter the case, if you can, go to the mastering session.
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cerberus

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2006, 05:46:59 am »

chrisj wrote on Sat, 25 November 2006 10:58

Can I hand you a towel, there?  
can i hand you a trowel, there?  Laughing

jeff dinces

chrisj

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Re: IMP8 mix discussion.
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2006, 01:24:39 pm »

cerberus wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 05:46

chrisj wrote on Sat, 25 November 2006 10:58

Can I hand you a towel, there?  
can i hand you a trowel, there?  Laughing


No thanks. I prefer to SHOVEL the mud onto my mixes!  Laughing
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