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Author Topic: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.  (Read 20366 times)

Ashermusic

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2006, 05:45:40 pm »

Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 22:16

The analogy is wrong but I will take it and run with it

For what I know, wine makers use all kinds of tricks to make wine taste better, nowadays. They have methods to make lower quality grapes better by treating them in special ways. That is why almost every below ten dollar bottle tastes great. Every vineyard has their own secret recipe, so I think the analogy still flies.

Sorry about the "dummies", I thought this was the insult section of PSW Wink

Peace.
Tony


If  they are adding ingredients they have to list them as people have allergies etc. or they are lookong for lawsuits.

Analogy aside (you might want to spell check that word nest time)

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/bigben.php

Show me where it says on that page that it dithers, or does anything other than clock. If it does and they do not say so in the product literature they are IMHO wrong, period.

And if it doesn't it cannot be improving the sound of a single decent clock, which most are nowadays, unless one prefers the more blurry sound of more jitter because of speaker/ear deficiencies that it masks.

It's sort of like drinking the person you pick up in a bar at 2:00 am in low lighting beter looking. They are not good looking but under those conditions you think they are.

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forgetmeknots

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2006, 05:51:52 pm »

Quote:

So who are you?


My name is in my profile, but just for you, it's Justin.

I study music and recording every waking moment 7 days a week, it depends on where I'm working out of.
In my humble beginnings I've studied with engineers in a studio, and I've studied in an overpriced school.  Both were valid experiences in which I put more in then my fellow students, (or so I've been told) and I can bet the farm that I left with more too.

There's more to this gig than a monkey behind an MBOX.

But to be honest, the one thing I think that lacks in a lot of young engineers is a work ethic.  However, that might be a different thread for a different day, I'm outta time and gotta get back to mixing.

Smell ya later Tony and welcome to PSW, but watch your tone, as there are some truly amazing minds here, and if you piss them off for the rest of us, i'll find you.  Twisted Evil
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bblackwood

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2006, 05:52:46 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 16:45

And if it doesn't it cannot be improving the sound of a single decent clock, which most are nowadays, unless one prefers the more blurry sound of more jitter because of speaker/ear deficiencies that it masks.

Pardon me, but who made you the final arbiter of what sounds 'good' or doesn't?

Last I checked, audio was quite subjective.

And no, I don't use any external clocking nor do I use anything Apogee.
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Brad Blackwood
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Ashermusic

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2006, 06:15:58 pm »

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 22:52

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 16:45

And if it doesn't it cannot be improving the sound of a single decent clock, which most are nowadays, unless one prefers the more blurry sound of more jitter because of speaker/ear deficiencies that it masks.

Pardon me, but who made you the final arbiter of what sounds 'good' or doesn't?

Last I checked, audio was quite subjective.

And no, I don't use any external clocking nor do I use anything Apogee.


What sounds good is subjective. What jitter does to sound is objective and I will say the hated word, sciencific.

This was Dan's point overall. I f you think it sounds better more jittery fine but don''t say something improves sound because it improves the jitter when it does the opposite. He merely tried to de-mystify this, which is I believe is part of the heading of someon'es forum here.

This is the audio equivalent of "creation science".
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bblackwood

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2006, 06:41:18 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 17:15

What sounds good is subjective. What jitter does to sound is objective and I will say the hated word, sciencific.

Sure, as is the distortion that a Neve pre adds, yet many people prefer this in certain situations, regardless of measurements...

Quote:

This was Dan's point overall. I f you think it sounds better more jittery fine but don''t say something improves sound because it improves the jitter when it does the opposite. He merely tried to de-mystify this, which is I believe is part of the heading of someon'es forum here.

Nice sarcasm, let's keep it on point and not try to make weak pot-shots.

Define 'improves'.
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Brad Blackwood
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maxdimario

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2006, 08:45:19 pm »

The problem with Dan L. is that he needs to prove all that he hears and feels...  through his PERSONAL knowledge..

actually that is the problem which every tech person brings into the music biz...

I think you'll find that the best scientists are actually very able observers of NATURAL fenomena.
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crm0922

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2006, 10:17:16 pm »

Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 15:37

Hello, Hello. I cannot believe this. Are you guys just ranting and not reading?

The answer to your question is in Lucas' reply. It is here you dummies!:

"Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else".

He said it, it is in print! Now get over it.

Sheesh....


All right, I am more interested in the answer to #2, not an "in most cases" answer.  That qualifier was in the original question (a reasonable crystal).  Lucas, can I safely assume your answer to the first question is #1 (the reasonable fixed crystal) ?

The answer to how an external box would know how to "improve" things down the line with no feedback still should be addressed.

Chris
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Revolution

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #82 on: November 24, 2006, 12:15:19 am »

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 09:21



as Fletcher stated above - this is NOT about bowing to an advertiser, etc. Apogee has never been an advertiser in PSW and will not be for the foreseeable future.



This is really a large part of the issue here.

Fletcher sells Apogee products ,is dumped by Lavry so gets Lavry kicked off forum. Rolling Eyes

Apogee while not advertisers on the forum could bee seen as potential advertisers surely.They do seem to have a large advertising budget.

anyway.

I haven't bought a Pro Audio magazine for over 2 years now because of the obvious bias to sponsors.To be honest this situation has exposed or at least given the illusion of much
worse.

Apologies to Fletcher in advance if there are any spelling mistakes. He may make good his threat to get some of his heavy's from the LCN for a "Introduction".

Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 19:18


Oh, and there is generally only 1x"f" in Mafia... unless you know something I don't know [besides, there is no Mafia... I could introduce you to a couple of guys I know who are connected to LCN and they'll swear up and down there is no such thing as the "mafia"].




Ashermusic

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2006, 12:57:00 am »

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 23:41

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 17:15

What sounds good is subjective. What jitter does to sound is objective and I will say the hated word, sciencific.

Sure, as is the distortion that a Neve pre adds, yet many people prefer this in certain situations, regardless of measurements...

Quote:

This was Dan's point overall. I f you think it sounds better more jittery fine but don''t say something improves sound because it improves the jitter when it does the opposite. He merely tried to de-mystify this, which is I believe is part of the heading of someon'es forum here.

Nice sarcasm, let's keep it on point and not try to make weak pot-shots.

Define 'improves'.


Oh come on, Brad, you are far too knowledgable to compare analog distorion which people have foiund aesthetically desirable for over 40 tears to digital jitter which no one has claimed is aesthetically  desirable that I am aware of. This argument is beneath you.

I give up.

Folks believe what you want to believe. As I said it is the musical equivalent of "creation science".
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bblackwood

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #84 on: November 24, 2006, 08:18:14 am »

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 23:57

[Oh come on, Brad, you are far too knowledgable to compare analog distorion which people have foiund aesthetically desirable for over 40 tears to digital jitter which no one has claimed is aesthetically  desirable that I am aware of. This argument is beneath you.

No, it's not 'beneath me'.

Fact is, there are folks who prefer digital clipping over limiting (or even leaving the signal alone). That's a process which creates everything but pleasing harmonics yet some folks like it. IME, any time you change a signal it can be better or worse - it's not automatically worse, but more often than not it is. But this is entirely a subjective discussion.

The point isn't whether or not I think more or less jitter sounds better it's the fact that Apogee sells a product which claims to make stuff sound better, and Dan went on to discuss it in his own forum where he made the point over and over that subjective issues were not to be discussed.

While Apogee tried (and by many account here, failed) to discuss on a technical level what they were doing, the fact is it was a discussion that was based entirely on a subjective experience!

Are you going to tell (insert famous mastering engineer) "it's beneath you" because he claims to prefer some form of clocking? It's about the sound and we (Fletcher and I) admit we made a mistake by allowing Dan to disassociate his forum from reality - that we work in a business that is almost entirely subjective and to divorce the 'art and science' of design from how it actually sounds doesn't help much.

While I understand people's frustrations; that it appears impropriety abounds, that Apogee was allowed to duck and run, that Dan was kicked off due to Apogee's influence - none of this is true. So let me quickly (and finally) repost what we've said about this issues: the discussion to remove Dan started long ago, as he (and company) required more hand-holding and baby-sitting than the rest of the mods combine, by a long shot. Fletcher makes a little money here, I make nothing, so, and I don't mean for this to sound dismissive or callous - forgive us for not wanting to keep someone on who took constant 'supervision'. I tried to be nice in the way I worded it up until now, but Fletcher's description was far more accurate. Suffice to say that when someone asks me if I'm anti-Semitic because R/E/P's parent company puts out 'Church Sound Magazine', they've crossed the line.

That's one of many examples.

Now please, I prefer we move forward. If you wish to discuss Apogee products, feel free to post about them in Bruno's forum - he's as honest and knowledgeable as anyone. If we were caving to Apogee, we certainly wouldn't suggest that you start the same thread again (the people seem to be focused on, even though we've said time and again it had nothing to do with Dan's departure) in the new forum.

We feel this is an upgrade for R/E/P and hope you enjoy his forum.
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Brad Blackwood
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studiojimi

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2006, 08:59:37 am »

Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 12:37

Hello, Hello. I cannot believe this. Are you guys just ranting and not reading?

The answer to your question is in Lucas' reply. It is here you dummies!:

"Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else".

He said it, it is in print! Now get over it.

Sheesh....



is "in most cases" good enough to be considered the answer?
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Ashermusic

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2006, 10:29:43 am »

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 24 November 2006 13:18

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 23:57

[Oh come on, Brad, you are far too knowledgable to compare analog distorion which people have foiund aesthetically desirable for over 40 tears to digital jitter which no one has claimed is aesthetically  desirable that I am aware of. This argument is beneath you.

No, it's not 'beneath me'.

Fact is, there are folks who prefer digital clipping over limiting (or even leaving the signal alone). That's a process which creates everything but pleasing harmonics yet some folks like it. IME, any time you change a signal it can be better or worse - it's not automatically worse, but more often than not it is. But this is entirely a subjective discussion.

The point isn't whether or not I think more or less jitter sounds better it's the fact that Apogee sells a product which claims to make stuff sound better, and Dan went on to discuss it in his own forum where he made the point over and over that subjective issues were not to be discussed.

While Apogee tried (and by many account here, failed) to discuss on a technical level what they were doing, the fact is it was a discussion that was based entirely on a subjective experience!

Are you going to tell (insert famous mastering engineer) "it's beneath you" because he claims to prefer some form of clocking? It's about the sound and we (Fletcher and I) admit we made a mistake by allowing Dan to disassociate his forum from reality - that we work in a business that is almost entirely subjective and to divorce the 'art and science' of design from how it actually sounds doesn't help much.

While I understand people's frustrations; that it appears impropriety abounds, that Apogee was allowed to duck and run, that Dan was kicked off due to Apogee's influence - none of this is true. So let me quickly (and finally) repost what we've said about this issues: the discussion to remove Dan started long ago, as he (and company) required more hand-holding and baby-sitting than the rest of the mods combine, by a long shot. Fletcher makes a little money here, I make nothing, so, and I don't mean for this to sound dismissive or callous - forgive us for not wanting to keep someone on who took constant 'supervision'. I tried to be nice in the way I worded it up until now, but Fletcher's description was far more accurate. Suffice to say that when someone asks me if I'm anti-Semitic because R/E/P's parent company puts out 'Church Sound Magazine', they've crossed the line.

That's one of many examples.

Now please, I prefer we move forward. If you wish to discuss Apogee products, feel free to post about them in Bruno's forum - he's as honest and knowledgeable as anyone. If we were caving to Apogee, we certainly wouldn't suggest that you start the same thread again (the people seem to be focused on, even though we've said time and again it had nothing to do with Dan's departure) in the new forum.

We feel this is an upgrade for R/E/P and hope you enjoy his forum.


Brad, I am not one of those who accused anyone of having commercial motives.  

As I said I am not willing to continue to argue this any further. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him boogaloo. I will end by saying that while much of the issue of what sounds good is subjective there are aspects of audio, particularly digital, that are objective and what I liked about Dan was that he always tried to delineate which was which and when the Apogee folk tried to blur that line IMHO he called them to task for it.

I like and respect Apogee as a company and I am sure some more of their products are in my future but I will not take their marketing claims at face value again.

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Ashermusic

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2006, 04:39:45 pm »

I just had a long chat with Max at Apogee. We agreed on many things, disagreed on others. He was gracious and informative and I learned some things. Thank you Max.

I think some of the claims that I have taken exception have not been so much instigated by Apogee as by Big Ben zealots making extravagant claims that Apogee does not.

To the degree that I have blamed Apogee for this when it wasn't really emanating from them I retract. However, where he and I disagree is the lengths that I feel Apogee should go to dispel them.  

There we just had to agree to disagree.
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Mark Herman

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2006, 08:51:43 pm »

As in many situations there are black and white viewpoints and many shades of gray depending on what angle one views the proceedings.  My viewpoint on this subject is from a website management perspective. I made the decision to close the forum.


Dan Lavry's forum was removed from the REP forum area because the chemistry with other team members and management was poor. This was not an overnight thing, it had been brewing for awhile. To make matters worse the president of Lavry Engineering became unnecessarily involved as well, which is in direct conflict with the interests of the REP forum.

In attempt to find a solution that might work to keep the  Dan Lavry forum going Mr. Lavry was offered the opportunity to have a completely new and separate tech forum area on PSW. And he was offered the choice to hand pick moderators for additional forums that would be complimentary to his in the same new forum area. In addition the offer was for him to make his own rule set for the forum area and to remain as the main moderator as long as he wanted. I offered to hire the man who created the original PSW forum software to split the Dan Lavry forum off so that it would remain intact if possible.

In addition he was offered a place in either the MARSH or SR forums if he wanted. But we both thought a separate new kind of forum area might be preferable.

All forum maintenance, setup and the extra-expensive forum split expenses would be paid by PSW.  We discussed coming up with a name and style that suited him for this new area.  

Considering the alternatives at hand this was a strong offer to give Mr. Lavry a continuing voice and for him to have the complete control he desired.

When I asked Mr. Lavry what he thought about the offer to have his own forum area he told me he would think about it – he was interested - but he was too busy to deal with it. I suggested that it might be a good idea to spend a few minutes with me – the management that ran the forum - to work out a solution to our problem and asked him to please call me back as soon as possible and discuss the issues because there was a deadline for action that I had set and it was approaching soon.


The offer was made, the reasons clearly spelled out and a deadline for action was called.

The deadline came and there was no response so I tried again 2 days later and hit a brick wall and a lot of looping talk.

By the way Dan was not talking to me at this time. The president of Lavry Engineering did all the talking on his behalf upon my return calls. So the person who is in charge of his manufacturing company was the one that spurned the PSW offers and stated many times that the entire issue was all about Apogee and lots of other nonsense. I heard an earful of how great the new Lavry products are and how much better they are than Apogee's and on and on. I had to repeatedly try to get the conversation back on track and off products and unfounded accusations. The president refused to consider any options except to remain on PSW under their stipulations and repeatedly stated that Fletcher was making tons of money off of all this and plenty of other things I’d rather not discuss.

I also offered Mr. Lavry a chance, if the forum was to close, to say a well deserved goodbye as he saw fit and to tell people where he would be posting for all those who wanted to continue following his posts and advice. And that offer is still in play. The offer to have another forum area was proposed again the other day and the results were threats from the president of Lavry Engineering.


FYI: I – nor anyone else at PSW has ever spoken to Apogee about advertising in the past few years and I have no relationship with them that affected my decision to move in a different direction with the forum in question.


I, like many others, think Dan has lots to offer and has contributed much, but in this case it was a situation where a change had to be made based on a moderator/management conflict. I tried to find a good solution that would work but was told Lavry Engineering wanted no further discussion. We had Dan Lavry moderating the forum - not Lavry Engineering. In the end it was Lavry Engineering  - a manufacturing company – arguing and telling REP/PSW exactly what to do and bad mouthing others.

Running the entire group of forums – there are now over 40 - involves many people and not everyone gets along all the time. Just like many other places in the world where there are people and egos involved, things do not always work out over time.

In this case a combination of people chemistry and conflicting manufacturing competition unfortunately evolved into a situation where something had to be done because it was going in a direction that was becoming unacceptable for the long term.

There is no conspiracy factor, no money issue, no secret forum, no religion, no technical disagreement, no commercial motive and no hidden agenda from PSW in regards to the individual forum closure. It just didn’t work out for the reasons I have spelled out.

Mark Herman
ProSoundWeb



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crm0922

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2006, 10:00:02 pm »

Hey Brad.  Objective science IS REALITY.  Our business of "how things sound" is subjective and meaningless to discuss in a forum without ABX tests.  The MARKETING is what makes the "reality of our business" as you see it.  How on earth are we supposed to have meaningful discussions based on hundreds of peoples' subjective opinions...oh yeah...that's what gearslutz is for...and why it is unreadable trash.

Just because someone somewhere likes digital clipping that does NOT mean it becomes a valid design goal for audio reproduction.

There is a huge audio snake-oil industry that sells people $10,000/ft. speaker cables and "quantum purifiers" and Dan's forum stood as a place to learn the technical reasons why that stuff is bullshit.

And now it is gone.

Chris

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