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Author Topic: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.  (Read 20345 times)

kraster

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2006, 01:13:14 pm »

I am shocked that this could happen.

My first post on the Lavry forum was an issue dealing with higher sample rates.

I read on a certain website that claimed that the ultra high frequency components in live music combine in air to produce beat tones in our hearing and that these beat tones would be an integral to the sound as a whole. By using higher sample rates these beat tones could be recreated to reproduce the sound stagein its entirety.

The truth is that the beat tones won't be recreated unless we can actually hear the original frequencies that interact to make the beat frequencies.  So it's a fallacious argument capturing ultra high frequencies will have a benefit in this respect.

The original claim was made as part of Apogee's technical documents on their website. To their credit, they removed the article promptly but only after the matter was cleared up on Dan Lavry's forum.

My point is that the forum served its purpose in that case ie. a scientific argument overruled the marketing claim. Simple as that.

We all operate in a business where we must aware of snakeoil and audio voodoo marketing forces that surround us. If we all bought into there shtik we'd be using 64-bit 768k digital and have little celtic crystals under our monitors. Dan's forum was a direct counterbalance to that. To claim that the fatal flaw in Dan's thinking is that he doesn't consider music to be important, the ear is not a valid tool or that subjective opinion trumps all is missing the point. His forum was designed to use a scientific quantification of the audio process and only call on the other factors when it was necessary to demonstrate a scientific point.

Just the facts please.

I think in a world where warm, fuzzy, crunchy are used to describe sound and $1500 (plus tax) interconnects are the order of the day that a little clarification is necessary.

One cannot use the idea of Dan's position as a manufacturer of audio gear and claim a conflict of interest disallows or invalidates him from commenting on it.If that were the case then every forum in the REP would have to close down on the same hidden agenda argument. I, as a reader, am very aware that the individuals running certain forums have business interests that could concievably bias their opinion on matters they discuss and I always weigh that fact against the arguments put forward by these people.

I think that censorship is bad in any form because it implies that the reader does not have the faculties to draw their own conclusions. And conversely the action of censorship is something that people will draw their own conclusions from too. To be frank, locking the word clock thread on Dan's forum after one last comment from Apogee stinks to high heaven. I have drawn my own conclusion from that act of censorship. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be anatagonistic it's just how I see it.

Obviously there are limits under the law and decency to what can and cannot be said and I also think that the name-calling and insults that abound around here reflects badly on the people who use them as tactics and lower the tone of the whole place.

For the record, I own both Apogee and Lavry equipment and I am very happy with both.
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crm0922

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2006, 02:15:55 pm »

Fletcher wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 09:12

malice wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 04:14

But in the end, within a 100% geek forum, I guess you should be able to backup your claims with numbers, epecially if you're a designer.


I am sure there is palpable and identifyable science to support the claim but I dare say it will involve psycho acoustic phenomenon which is probably over the head of most folk here... but psycho acoustic phenomenon is also what is behind things like "phase shift" we find musically pleasing in transformers, it also encompasses frequency response characteristics as well as headroom characteristics.


The audible qualities of transformers is easily explained in technical terms.

The bullshit of adding external clock boxes for improved audio performance cannot be explained in technical terms because it is bullshit.

Of course you should be able to "back up claims with numbers".  How can one design anything without technical goals that are to be met?  No one, not even Apogee, sets design goals of "AWESOME SOUND" and just starts banging stuff together until it sounds "AWESOME" to famous LA producers.

I am quite certain that a technical explanation for the purported improvements from using Big Ben would not have been over the head of Mr. Lavry at the very least...and others around here (myself included) have degrees in technical fields as well and are able to understand quite a bit, in fact.

Chris
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forgetmeknots

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2006, 02:34:10 pm »

well it certainly has become quite clear as to what this place really is.  

it's kinda too bad really, considering the internet already has a gearslutz.com

but, as the amount of advertisements grew, and the forum became what it is today, it really has become QUITE CLEAR as to whats going on.

Draw your own conclusions, as these are my own opinions, but thanks for this new version of Mix Magazine online.

I guess when I need to know something, I'll be looking for someplace with a little more factual content that can be backed by technical data (like I pretty much do anyways, instead of soul searching this place)
and I'll reserve this place for when I need to know how many pres I should use and on what, in my room that none of you know, on an act that none of you have heard.  


Signing off,

Justin
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crm0922

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2006, 02:35:08 pm »

The original questions


I. QUESTION: WHICH SOLUTION PROVIDES LESS JITTER AT THE AD LOCATION?

1. A REASONABLE FIXED CRYSTAL
2. BIG BEN DRIVING A CLOCK INTO A CHASSIS EQUIPPED WITH A PLL VIA A 10 FOOT CABLE?

II. QUESTION: CAN ONE EVER CANCEL OR REDUCE A RANDOM NOISE AT ONE END OF A CABLE WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT KIND OF JITTER ACTIVITY IS OCCURRING AT THE OTHER END?
(can one cancel, remove or reduce the receiver and PLL noise, some of it unknown, some totally random, by driving it with a clean low jitter clock? Driving it with any clock?)



Lucas said in Dan's locked forum


The answers to those questions we have given several times before in this thread. But to make it easy for you and not have to search for it I’ll say it again:

Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else. However, we do say a number of things that are beyond this question.
1. Big Ben is an excellent solution if you need a master clock. It is low jitter and offers a lot of features the competition does not have.
2. If you need to clock to a jittery source, for instance a SPDIF output of a computer or a commercial cd player, having the Big Ben re-clock the data first, will very often improve the sonic and MEASURABLE quality of the converter used. The amount of improvement is all dependent of the quality of the PLL circuit of said converter. In other words, the better the PLL, the least improvement will be noted.
3. For this one I will be quoting Max, because he put it so well:

“Yes, Jitter is a deficiency that causes a certain type of distortion to the signal. However, the ear, being a non-linear device with respect to frequency, will not hear all jitter the same. It is very easy to create a scenario whereby two signals can be induced with jitter, one of which has significantly more jitter than the other, but sounds audibly more ACCURATE to the ear. The distortion due to jitter on the one with more jitter can be relegated to frequencies that are entirely out of the human audible spectrum in various ways, whereas the other can have far less jitter, but at frequencies that are much more audibly apparent.

It is certainly possible to design an external clock in such a way that the increased amount of jitter that results will have less of an audible impact than the internal clock by itself. For this reason one cannot claim that an internal clock will always be more accurate - merely that it will theoretically always have less jitter. There is a significant difference between the two, and the testimony we have been seeing on the market and in our own testing with respect to Big Ben over the last few years certainly attests to this.”

I would like to add to this: There are numerous examples in technology, where we find that an actual reduction in performance of one parameter can lead to a perceived and sometimes actual improvement, in others. A good example in audio is dither, (noise shaped especially). By adding dither we actually reduce the dynamic range, yet we improve the perceived noise floor by masking the annoying noise of rounding errors.

My last word on this topic is, people do perceive more than science can explain. Our senses are intrinsically subjective, however the more experienced we become, the more we train our perception, the more OBJECTIVE we can become and obviously, your mileage may vary.

Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics



Just so everyone knows why Lucas being allowed to have the last word is horseshit....just look at this response...it doesn't even come close to answering the questions asked. AGAIN!!!  This is fucking unbelievable.  It reads like more marketing drivel.

Let me help you get started.  The first question is this:

Quote:


I. QUESTION: WHICH SOLUTION PROVIDES LESS JITTER AT THE AD LOCATION?

1. A REASONABLE FIXED CRYSTAL
2. BIG BEN DRIVING A CLOCK INTO A CHASSIS EQUIPPED WITH A PLL VIA A 10 FOOT CABLE?



It has TWO possible answers.  #1 or #2.  The answer "Big Ben is a good master clock" is not one of the choices.

I have been insisting on getting an answer to question II, and the question has been systematically dodged EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Quote:


II. QUESTION: CAN ONE EVER CANCEL OR REDUCE A RANDOM NOISE AT ONE END OF A CABLE WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT KIND OF JITTER ACTIVITY IS OCCURRING AT THE OTHER END?
(can one cancel, remove or reduce the receiver and PLL noise, some of it unknown, some totally random, by driving it with a clean low jitter clock? Driving it with any clock?)



We still need an answer as to how an external clock, even with "magic jitter" that sounds "better", would avoid the added jitter of a cable link, line driver/receiver, internal converter PLL, etc.  Even with the "magic jitter", the PLL induced jitter alone will result in a far more jittery clock input at the converter chip.  And a good chunk of that jitter is all induced POST BIG BEN!!!  How can this be guaranteed to sound better?

How can your device plan for and remove the effects of cabling and a PLL driving a converter chip from the outside?  How can it know what to correct without a feedback loop?

You still have not answered the question.

Chris

PS - just for the record, I don't own any Apogee or Lavry gear, so my obnoxiousness on this topic is not related to personal "gear pride".
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kraster

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2006, 02:45:49 pm »

Well Chris,

Unless Apogee come out from behind the smokescreen of "21st century technology" and "Top secret" research and explain how this fete of defying the laws of physics and thermodynamics is acheived the answer to the question

WHICH SOLUTION PROVIDES LESS JITTER AT THE AD LOCATION?

1. A REASONABLE FIXED CRYSTAL
2. BIG BEN DRIVING A CLOCK INTO A CHASSIS EQUIPPED WITH A PLL VIA A 10 FOOT CABLE?

is, I may venture, no 1.

What do I win?
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kraster

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2006, 03:11:51 pm »

The thing is that if Apogee claim that their Big Ben clocking process is either applying some kind of Dither noise shaping or some other proprietary method I can accept that it may sound "better" in some kind of way. And would even audition one on that premise. After all, the ultimate aim is good sound.

But the continuing ambiguity and evasiveness on the simple questions asked just comes across as suspicious. Leading us all to draw our own conclusions.

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Tritony

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2006, 03:37:56 pm »

Hello, Hello. I cannot believe this. Are you guys just ranting and not reading?

The answer to your question is in Lucas' reply. It is here you dummies!:

"Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else".

He said it, it is in print! Now get over it.

Sheesh....
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Tritony

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2006, 03:44:39 pm »

The thing is that if Apogee claim that their Big Ben clocking process is either applying some kind of Dither noise shaping or some other proprietary method I can accept that it may sound "better" in some kind of way. And would even audition one on that premise. After all, the ultimate aim is good sound.

But the continuing ambiguity and evasiveness on the simple questions asked just comes across as suspicious. Leading us all to draw our own conclusions.


So you think Cola Cola has the duty to release their secret recipe, becasue you like to drink it?

Does a waiter have to tell you how the wine was made in order for you to like it?

You guys are so insecure...
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forgetmeknots

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2006, 04:16:07 pm »

And who are you Mr. Tritony??

After all with a post count of 2, and your two posts appearing in this very topic, some might be led to believe that you're an apogee insider preaching to the choir, or some PSW goon, brought in to calm down the herd.

Nonetheless, you have no history here, and your credibility in my opinion, holds no water here.  

But thanks for your comments nonetheless.

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Tritony

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2006, 04:31:56 pm »

And who are you Mr. Tritony??

Oops, sorry I did not know you had to introduce yourself before you post the first time.

Well I am Tony, I study music in Los Angeles and I own an Mbox...I know, I know, not an Apogee or a Lavry. Maybe one day....

But I do notice, lurking on this site for a few months now, how sloppy people are in reading each other's messages.

And ok...admitted, the "wine" and "coke" lines I borrowed from someone else, but I think they are still good.

So who are you?
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rnicklaus

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2006, 04:50:31 pm »

When your first post includes "you dummies" and " now get over it. Sheesh" - someone just may indeed ask who you are.
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Ashermusic

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2006, 04:50:44 pm »

Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 20:37

Hello, Hello. I cannot believe this. Are you guys just ranting and not reading?

The answer to your question is in Lucas' reply. It is here you dummies!:

"Jitter at the converter chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else".

He said it, it is in print! Now get over it.

Sheesh....


They have said other things and implied other things at various times in various forums.

I would not take that statement at face value if I were you. It is disingenuous at best.
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Ashermusic

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2006, 04:54:24 pm »

Tritony wrote on Thu, 23 November 2006 20:44

The thing is that if Apogee claim that their Big Ben clocking process is either applying some kind of Dither noise shaping or some other proprietary method I can accept that it may sound "better" in some kind of way. And would even audition one on that premise. After all, the ultimate aim is good sound.

But the continuing ambiguity and evasiveness on the simple questions asked just comes across as suspicious. Leading us all to draw our own conclusions.


So you think Cola Cola has the duty to release their secret recipe, becasue you like to drink it?

Does a waiter have to tell you how the wine was made in order for you to like it?

You guys are so insecure...



The analogy is wrong but I will take it and run with it.

No but if they are putting something in the wine that the consumer does not reasonably expect to be in a bottle of wine then they have an obligation to inform the consumer.

So if the Big Ben is doing anything other than clocking it should be in the product description.
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Tritony

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2006, 05:16:14 pm »

The analogy is wrong but I will take it and run with it

For what I know, wine makers use all kinds of tricks to make wine taste better, nowadays. They have methods to make lower quality grapes better by treating them in special ways. That is why almost every below ten dollar bottle tastes great. Every vineyard has their own secret recipe, so I think the analogy still flies.

Sorry about the "dummies", I thought this was the insult section of PSW Wink

Peace.
Tony
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bblackwood

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2006, 05:21:23 pm »

I'm not going to debate anyone's opinion as to whether Lavry's or Apogee's technical points are more worthy, but...

as Fletcher stated above - this is NOT about bowing to an advertiser, etc. Apogee has never been an advertiser in PSW and will not be for the foreseeable future.

As Dan himself admitted to deleting posts from Apogee personnel, we felt it best to give Apogee a chance to answer the questions in a manner they felt was fair without the fear of it being deleted. This is why they were given the chance to answer the questions after the forum was closed.

If you really want to question them about it, go to Bruno's forum and ask away. As long as we have a mod who won't delete answers (as we do now with Bruno), we have no problem with people taking manufacturers to task.

If this was about censorship, we simply wouldn't allow discussions concerning Apogee/Big Ben. This simply isn't the case.

Now can we drop the melodramatic nonsense?
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