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Author Topic: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.  (Read 18139 times)

Lucas van der Mee

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2006, 01:38:31 pm »

CRM0992 said
“Then Dan bashes Apogee because of their inability to defend their marketing claims, and drew the ire of the forum operators. And the mods may have disagreed with his tone or methods, but the unaddressed questions to Apogee in those threads are still valid questions today as people waste thousands of dollars on clock boxes to "clean up their audio.”

Chris,

There is no inability to defend our marketing claims. The problem you may have had in getting our point of view was because we weren’t allowed to fully defend or explain ourselves in Dan’s forum. Dan had no problem deleting our posts and other’s who supported our opinion, when he did not like the contents.

If you’ll go through the thread again, you’ll see that Dan claims statements we never made, that Dan distorts Max’ and my words, whether intentionally or not and most of all continually keeps repeating the same questions instead of  going into detail into what we really say.

Mr Lavry did not act like an unbiased moderator, rather, like he had an agenda. He was not mediating, presiding or acting like he should. He used a public forum to attack a competitor and a former employer, while not allowing the competitor to respond freely. Hence we decided to not take part in any of his discussions anymore and limit our responses to putting out fires when required.


Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics
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Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics

malice

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2006, 01:50:24 pm »

Lucas van der Mee wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 19:38


Mr Lavry did not act like a moderator, he had an agenda, he was not mediating, presiding or acting like a chairman. He used a public forum to attack a competitor and a former employer, but not allowing the competitor to speak freely. Hence we decided to not take part in any of his discussions anymore and limit our responses to putting out fires when required.


Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics



Whatever I think of Mr Lavry is irrelevant but:  

This is called: "kicking a man when he is already down" in my book.

Maybe you should have participated in the discussions instead of doing this.

Not too classy, imho...

malice

Lucas van der Mee

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2006, 01:58:16 pm »

Quote:

Whatever I think of Mr Lavry is irrelevant but:  

This is called: "kicking a man when he is already down" in my book.

Maybe you should have participated in the discussions instead of doing this.

Not too classy, imho...

malice


My intention is not to "kick" Dan when he's down, I am just explaining our position to Chris, who still seemed to have some issues with what happened and what was said.

The reason we stopped participating I already explained in the above post.

Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics
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Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics

malice

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2006, 02:27:31 pm »

I hear you Lucas, but i'm not convinced.

REP chose a moderator with a strong opinion. He is also a competitor to your company. Some of his option (like limiting his converters to 96k for instance )  happens to be an argument to his marketing and designing plans.


This is a public forum. I don't recall Dan having edited one of your posts or erasing your comments. I don't recall him banning you from his place, so I guess you could have defend yourself without fearing being muzled.

He was not hidding his aggenda, as Brad is not hidding his crusade against the "mastering mafia" as Fletcher is not hidding his bias toward the gear manufacturers he doesn't pimp, as Steve Albini doesn't hide his dislike of majors.

bottom line is : we all have aggendas.

I don't know why Dan has been kiked out, or even if he chose to leave, but I see your post count and your last explanation to why you were not posting and how you find Dan to be a poor moderator.

So far i'm not convinced, and to say the least, a bit disapointed by your recent contribution to this forum.

But maybe I'm biased.

Are you slowly getting my point ?

malice

rankus

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2006, 02:35:23 pm »



I will miss Dan a lot!
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John Ivan

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2006, 02:40:33 pm »

Lucas van der Mee wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 13:38

CRM0992 said
“Then Dan bashes Apogee because of their inability to defend their marketing claims, and drew the ire of the forum operators. And the mods may have disagreed with his tone or methods, but the unaddressed questions to Apogee in those threads are still valid questions today as people waste thousands of dollars on clock boxes to "clean up their audio.”

Chris,

There is no inability to defend our marketing claims. The problem you may have had in getting our point of view was because we weren’t allowed to fully defend or explain ourselves in Dan’s forum. Dan had no problem deleting our posts and other’s who supported our opinion, when he did not like the contents.

If you’ll go through the thread again, you’ll see that Dan claims statements we never made, that Dan distorts Max’ and my words, whether intentionally or not and most of all continually keeps repeating the same questions instead of  going into detail into what we really say.

Mr Lavry did not act like an unbiased moderator, rather, like he had an agenda. He was not mediating, presiding or acting like he should. He used a public forum to attack a competitor and a former employer, while not allowing the competitor to respond freely. Hence we decided to not take part in any of his discussions anymore and limit our responses to putting out fires when required.


Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics




Then I misunderstood the the whole thing. I thought you were invited to discuss the issue in full detail. I also thought the reason he asked the same question's over and over again was because he never got and answer. But it's water under the bridge now. Hopefully, the new Forum will be informative and I'm sure Bruno will do a great job.

In the end, I think we can all agree that sometimes large companies, in an effort to move product sometimes stretch the limits of sound science and engineering in their marketing. I believe that to some degree Apogee has done this but they are not alone by any stretch.

I have nothing against Apogee at all and would still consider buying their products but, I am very disappointed in the fact that the conversation was discontinued. I don't doubt that Mr. Lavry was slightly over the top at times but hey, this is a brilliant Engineer. I would not expect him to be diplomat of the year.

I just think these battles are informative and while they seem ugly at times, if allowed to continue, over time, more can be learned.

My 2 cents.

Ivan................
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George_

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2006, 03:46:21 pm »

just as a sidenote..

While I can't and know nothing about it, I have met Lucas van der Mee on the Musikmesse at Frankfurt last year. He was very nice talking to me (remember your gearslutz-pen;)) and was very informative on the apogee ensemble (and the problems they had with it).

sad that Dan is gone. Hi Bruno Cool
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Ashermusic

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2006, 04:01:14 pm »

Well, I can't comment on what Dan deleted or did not because if he delteed things obviously i did not see them.

I also have no problems with the Apogee guys, I am sure they are nice fellows, but they do sometimes make claims in forums that are simply not supported by any kind of science, i.e. the Big Ben clocking one converter improving the sound, which appeals to the "we know what we hear" crowd.

I will miss Dan's forum as it was a continuing source of education for me and I hope it finds a new home.
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maxdimario

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2006, 06:33:14 pm »

A friend who has been in the recording business for decades and has engineering and math degree once commented that 'just because you can build good converters it does not mean you are god'

I have to agree that there was a little bit of an attitude in mr Lavry's approach.. and he did say some things which were contradictory and self serving, in a way.
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wwittman

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2006, 06:45:46 pm »

Personally I can see the advantage in not having a moderator who is representative of a PARTICULAR brand of product or service.

It seems obvious to me that if the guy from Neumann runs the mic forum, he's at least much more LIKELY to have problems with unfavourable opinions about Neumann or competitive posts from other manufacturers.
(just as example)


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John Ivan

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2006, 09:59:44 pm »

maxdimario wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 18:33

A friend who has been in the recording business for decades and has engineering and math degree once commented that 'just because you can build good converters it does not mean you are god'

I have to agree that there was a little bit of an attitude in mr Lavry's approach.. and he did say some things which were contradictory and self serving, in a way.



Which you can/do and will get from every MOD here in one way or another. There's a guy selling gear, a Guy who gets big bucks for re working mic's, a bunch of studio owners, and so on. No news there at all. I just think some people didn't like him. Those people were in a position to make him go away {or they agreed they would part way's}..

There really is this deal where folks believe in the Circles and Arrows on the cables. People believe all kinds of shit that isn't true at all about gear. Thanks to Dan, a few less people believe in this bull shit and I think that's a good thing.

Read the first couple posts that Max guy posted in the big thread. I would have told him to never come back ever. I thought Mr. Lavry was light on him...

Oh well,

Ivan........................
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crm0922

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2006, 02:25:20 am »

Lucas van der Mee wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 13:38

CRM0992 said
“Then Dan bashes Apogee because of their inability to defend their marketing claims, and drew the ire of the forum operators. And the mods may have disagreed with his tone or methods, but the unaddressed questions to Apogee in those threads are still valid questions today as people waste thousands of dollars on clock boxes to "clean up their audio.”

Chris,

There is no inability to defend our marketing claims. The problem you may have had in getting our point of view was because we weren’t allowed to fully defend or explain ourselves in Dan’s forum. Dan had no problem deleting our posts and other’s who supported our opinion, when he did not like the contents.

If you’ll go through the thread again, you’ll see that Dan claims statements we never made, that Dan distorts Max’ and my words, whether intentionally or not and most of all continually keeps repeating the same questions instead of  going into detail into what we really say.

Mr Lavry did not act like an unbiased moderator, rather, like he had an agenda. He was not mediating, presiding or acting like he should. He used a public forum to attack a competitor and a former employer, while not allowing the competitor to respond freely. Hence we decided to not take part in any of his discussions anymore and limit our responses to putting out fires when required.


Lucas van der Mee
Sr. Design Engineer
Apogee Electronics



Oh stop it Lucas.  Max PM'd me personally and claimed that Big Ben makes systems sound better because listeners say so.  He would not answer the question about added jitter at the converter chip using Big Ben (or anything else).  All he said is that "certain kinds of jitter sound better, even in higher amounts".  That is not a technical response to the question posed.

Somehow you were allowed to sneak a last post into Dan's forum.

  http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/0/14324/200/931 /#msg_14324

Can anyone explain why Apogee has this privelege and no one else (probably not even Dan) does?  For example, I was not able to reply even to threads not marked "locked" in that forum.

WTF is going on here?

This whole thing stinks.

And anyways, your response indicates that increased clock jitter can somehow result in better sound and you are basing your marketing claims on that.  Although, in your marketing, you are not pointing that out, instead choosing to pump up the subjective opionions of your better-known customers.

The second part of questions re: BB can be summarized as:

"Can an external box reduce jitter in an attached device without a feedback loop telling the external clock what needs to be corrected?"

There is still a question as to whether your claims that "special jitter" with greater magnitude can improve audio performance.  Even so, if the cabling and cable receiver/PLL is adding jitter, HOW CAN YOUR DEVICE KNOW ABOUT THIS AND MAKE CORRECTIONS?  Doesn't this make sense to ask?  Am I crazy?  PLL's are much more jittery than a decent crystal clock.  What is Big Ben going to do about that?  Does anyone else feel like this should be answered and not just smokescreened over and over again?

It is misleading to your customers to claim that "snake oil" is the reason why using your product will give them better sound.  A reasonable technical explanation for performance differences IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to provide if you wish to treat your clients fairly.

Chris

PS - Dan claimed many times he did not delete any of your posts, Lucas, so your statement to that effect is also misleading.  Unless Dan lied outright, but I recall that it was agreed only a couple of Max's posts were removed (and Nika's).
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malice

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2006, 06:49:12 am »

crm0922 wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 08:25


Can anyone explain why Apogee has this privelege and no one else (probably not even Dan) does?  For example, I was not able to reply even to threads not marked "locked" in that forum.




I agree. This is most peculiar. Can we have a clear answer to this question ?

I noticed that the remainly opened (and famous)  thread "proper word clock implementation" was closed right after Lucas from Apogee posted a final answer when it was already an archive. Then it was locked.

What the fuck ?

malice

Revolution

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2006, 07:26:35 am »

To be quite honest the only real looser here is Apogee.

While I will still contribute to the forum (with much greater scepticism)I can now only consider the "Big Ben" in the same league of many other audio rip-off's.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.But im glad the scam was exposed.

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Re: Mr Lavry's forum is gone.
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2006, 07:44:55 am »

Revolution wrote on Wed, 22 November 2006 07:26

To be quite honest the only real looser here is Apogee.



And to add to that, I'm sure I don't know anyone who has ever chosen Apogee over Lavry gear. I know I'd prefer the latter.
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