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Author Topic: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion  (Read 5552 times)

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WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« on: November 14, 2006, 05:28:47 PM »

This is the place where we reveal the man behind the master and discuss what we did and most of all why we did what we did on WUMP 9 - Crazy People.

Please post your reviews on the masters in the WUMP NINE listening thread before you continue here.


Bombs away!
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Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 12:56:40 PM »

My master was 1234

I felt the mix was a little congested and lifeless so I wanted to trim it where I could and expand the dynamics a little.

ParEQ
HPF   20Hz
-1.7 @ 124 Q 6.2
-1.1 @ 232 Q 3.8
-1.4 @ 899 Q 5.5
-1.6 @ 4001 Q 5.5
-1.4 @ 6309 Q 7.6
-1.3 @ 10365 Q 3.9

UAD multiband
for de-essing
x-over freq: 8kHz to 10kHz
attack 2ms
rel 22ms

I also had the mid band engaged by accident and thereby removed the presence of snare and vocals Confused

PSP Mastercomp
Ratio 0.7
Attack 1ms
Release 200ms
mix 70%
Fat - Soft - RMS

UAD prec limiter
release auto
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Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering

aivoryuk

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 02:31:50 PM »

mine was 2980, some vary varied comments

my impression of the mix was it didn't quite know what it was going to be, hip-hop/pop/RnB, the production IMO had more a popier flavour than Hip-Hop

Generally i thought the mix was ok, but there was a lot of things getting in the way of each other some of the synths and the vocals.

first off, i did some manual gain changing for the bird dance section and reduced that a bit.

then i used
waves desser to control the sibliance, actually i used quite a low threshold whcih resulted in quite a bit gain reduction (kudos to mr littman for picking that out  Smile )

I felt that the synths on the sides were really getting in the way of every thing. and i wanted to reduce this

PLP eq
side channel 1khz -2.5 db ( this is the why it seems like the width has been the reduced)
hpf about 100hz

Algorithmix red eq
32hz hpf
98Hz +1 wide q
250Hz -1.5 medium q

tc electronics compressor

ratio 1.4
max 2dB reduction on loudsections
attack 70ms
release 700ms

then clipped output a bit
followed by waves L2 0.6 gain, max reduction -0.4

pow-r 3 dither

thats about it
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mikepecchio

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 03:46:53 PM »

mine was 1636
I thought the mix was good and didn't need anything fixed.  As already mentioned, this is more like a pop/hip hop thing than straight ghetto rap. IMO it doesn't need to be hyped and slammed. I tried to keep it from getting stressed sounding after limiting. I also tried to enhance the punch a tiny bit with compression so that after limiting it still sounds similar to the original. in retrospect I think I could have been more aggressive with the limiting.

Playback from nuendo, no processing
benchmark DAC-1
SSL G384 compressor:  
   attack 30
   release .1
   ratio 10
   about 1 db reduction in the loudest parts
Cello Audio Pallette EQ:
   +0.5 @ 120
   +0.25 @ 500
   +1 @ 26k
   3 dB gain
Apogee PSX-100 A/D (not clipping)
Voxengo elephant #1
   Clip mode
   Input +5.5
   Output 0
   No upsampling, dither, noiseshaping.
   0% linked
Voxengo elephant #2
   EL-2
   Faster
   Input +1
   Output -.1
   No upsampling, dither, noiseshaping.
   10% linked
uv22 dither
Rendered to file w/ nuendo.

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MT Groove

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 05:21:42 PM »

Mine was 3554

First off, I though the mix was OK, but seems a bit cluttered.  I like the overall sound but now the level placements of all the instruments and vocals.

In Samplitude Pro

I lowered the chorus sections by 1.42dB, then lowered the Bird Dance to the end section by 2.75dB

Voxengo HarmoniEQ

-5.1 @ 42 Medium Q
-2.6 @ 48 Narrow Q
-0.8 @ 280 Wide Q
-2.4 @ 3.75 Narrow Q
+2.2 @ 11.6k High Shelf wide
Boost ON
Woofer ON
Sound:  Normal
Quality: High


TC Electronic MD3 Multiband Compressor

XOver at 100Hz & 4kHz
Crest:  RMS
Auto Gain: Off
Thres:  -13.5; -11; -16
Ratio:  2:00; 2:00; 2:00
Attack:  50; 50; 50ms
Rel:  70; 70; 70ms
Gain +8.5; 9.5; 9.5

Sony Oxford Inflator

Input:  2.0
Effect:  100
Curve:  0
Output: 0
Split Band Mode


Voxengo Elephant

Lim Mode: EL-3
Speed:  Faster
Oversample:  4X
In:  0
Out:  -0.1

Dither:  Pow-r 1

After listening back, I should have done things differently.  Perhaps should have used a deesser, didn't slam the levels that hard, and shouldn't have cut so much off the bass.  



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chrisj

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 07:56:10 PM »

This time I was 1776 Smile

This one didn't take a lot of EQ, but a key point was BASS for obvious reasons- that the desired ME was 'Big Bass' Gardner, that the bassline throws in crazy subsonic rumblings at the slightest provocation. In fact the bass is so out of hand that all the EQ alterations are in the way of treble boosts. There's shelves at 400, 1300, 4911 and 6500 hz stacked on top of each other, always boosting the highs, and even then the lows get unmanageable when the subs kick in. The shelves aren't very big, though, because I wanted it not to be too tizzy. All under 1 db. (it still ended up too bright- I fixed my monitoring some and then tried it with less than half the boost, and it was better)

I started using Chebyshev polynomials to produce harmonic synthesis (there's a Tom Erbe plugin that does this, but the current interface is impractical- I ended up writing my own version). I ended up with 0.348% second harmonic, 0.7 percent third and 0.6 percent fifth. There's some pre-de-emphasis in there- for instance the 0.7 percent third harmonic is actually 6.3 percent taken out before compression and seven percent added back. I don't know what these would compare to on processors like the HEDD, other than 'very little effect'. (Again- the brightness added here was excessive in retrospect- this more than the shelves is where the 'thin' came from)

The biggest problem was the subsonic rumbles (octave dividers?) which are basically a big flapping sound. It would be easy if I wasn't trying to hit the level so hard. I ended up having to edit the track very slightly in Amadeus after mastering it, just to smooth off some artifacts produced by those pant-flapping subs hitting the limiting and everything. It'll be interesting to hear that stuff hitting other people's chains because it wreaked havoc on mine!

I found that I was keying off the strings in the background some of the time- I could tell if a decision was good by whether it made the strings sound bigger and better, since they were buried behind a lot of other stuff.

Evil mad scientistness for this WUMP- trying to build second harmonic generation into the limiter keyed to a heavily lowpassed version of the track so that when the peaks got clamped, the body of the track would be violently deformed in the direction of the bass. This takes advantage of how hard it is to hear second harmonic. It worked, some people noticed the level of the subs without being told.

I had a hell of a time making the bulk of the track be hot, but I was getting upwards of 9 db of peak limiting so much of the time that I threw up my hands and said, hey, if this isn't going to be wildly altered in EQ then the bass and the pulse is going to take up all the room here and it's going to get really slammed on those elements to make the rest of it solid. Possibly this was a mistake but I'm good with it. Hottest peaks are coming in around -3.2dbFS, avg. -12dbFS.

I ran a separate pass with a bass crossover point in the EQ rolled way back, just for the subs part, so the rest of the track would sound similar, and I spliced it in. That's after I already tried to remedy the 'splat' with EQing those bass hits. This was a ridiculous move, but oh well: there was no way to have best of both worlds otherwise. The track remains super-smokin-hot largely because I wanted a sense of fullness and solidity, plus I took 'hip hop track, make it slammin' to mean 'as hot and solid as possible but big'. I didn't read it as 'keep squeaky clean', I read it as 'don't make the bass fart out'. I got the bass pretty ridiculously phat for such a loud track, thanks to the well-balanced and ambitious mix. It still farts out tho  Confused

cerberus

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 08:16:01 PM »

mine is 8765...

my aspiration was very high. i aimed for infectious groove, and (of course) the biggest, baddest bass i could muster. and for sena to sound compelling and sexy while maintaining her 'tude.  i thought the arrangement had contrast and variance among the parts of the song,  but i found some of the contrasts were odd. e.g. i found the compression changing-up on the drums between the verses, choruses, and bird dance was distracting,  so it had to flow better. i struggeled with the lack of dynamic range in the mix, and i found the top end filtering on the mix was a bit strongly flavored...

usually i don't tend to use eq, save for all-pass and sometimes hpf or lpf filters and multiband compression...  but this time i was trying out a new eq from waves, which is modeled on the famous and fabulous neve 1081.  i did get carried away with the tonal beauty of it.  also at the time, i was unaware of it's uniquely sensitive response  to input.  the plug-in models the amp/transformer responses, not just the filters.  

one m.e. at m.d. has said "that's not a mastering eq!" and i admit it seems generally the case: a 1081 would not replace any digital eq that would be considered acceptable for in mastering. in this case i ran it time reversed (offline process) and only mixed in a smidgeon of the forward process.

it is not so "transparent".  that was the fun part.  "midrangey" was a typcial critique comment. i think i should have turned down the input signal to that device: then it would have produced less harmonic distortion near the freq's i targeted.. quite obviously i boosted the middle, and it got too thick there, as so many wumpers mentioned in their critiques.  i think it may have helped bring on "more sena", but imposed itself too much on the instruments.    well... at least i avoided making a "smile curve"!

since this wump, i am using the  "1081"  only as all-pass, meaning i will switch the bells and shelves in, but keep them set at unity gain: these filters rotate the phase like crazy: i.e.  they appear to shift a sine wave in time, but "miraculously" transients still line up perfectly, not smeared like using eq "normally" would always do.   that is a major difference between rotating phase and shifting it.  

however in this case, i employed boosts and cuts, thereby shifting the phase  (micro-delay, as all eqs do!) as well as rotating it. maybe to cope better with the copious resonances that resulted, i guess could have used... more eq?! (i was pretty daft with it... < never use unfamiliar gear for mastering !!! >   but it was fun, i tell ya!)

chrisj wrote on Thu, 16 November 2006 19:56

I ran a separate pass with a bass crossover point in the EQ rolled way back, just for the subs part, so the rest of the track would sound similar, and I spliced it in.
 i am not sure exactly what you mean by "subs part" and "spliced".  did you treat the verses differently from the choruses, etc..?   or did you run a parallel track containing mostly low freq signal?  do you mean "sub bass signals" as in: below 20 hz?  


jeff dinces

Luke Fellingham

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 04:40:01 AM »

My entry was 1001. I was generally pleased with how my entry turned out.

Sony Oxford: HPF at 30Hz

Convert to M/S
S channel Gain +1dB
+1dB at 600Hz,+ 0.5dB at 1.93KHz
Convert back to LR

Out via Lavry DA10

Avalon 2055: +1dB at 300Hz shelf, -1dB at 10KHz high q, +1db at 1.5KHz shelf

Gyraf G10: Input at maximum, approx 1.5dB reduction, medium/ fast attack and release.

Gyraf G14: +1.5dB at 80Hz high q, +0.5dB at 500Hz low q, +1.5dB at 2KHz low q,+1dB at 16KHz low q

In via apogee, no soft limit.
UAD Precision Limiter: about 1.5dB reduction.
Sony Oxford Inflator: Effect 100% Curve 0.0

POW-r dither (I forgot to note down whether I used type 1 or 2).

UnderTow

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2006, 05:57:07 AM »

My entry was 8967.

My main problem with the mix was the sharpness of the vocal. Each time I tried to control that, I ended up affecting the snare. I was experimenting with the Sonar Vintage Channel 64 for the first time. I used its De-esser but it really doesn't afford enough control and was pulling down the snare as much as the vox sharpness so that was a bad move. Next time I will use a different tool.

I also EQed a little bit of the sharpness out but again, this was affecting the snare so I added the Waves Trans-X to get the snare back in. This also affected the vocal which clicks a bit. (I think this is the stressed sound some people are talking about)

I used volume automation to bring down the bird dance section by about 3 dB.

I tried to get things relatively loud without distorting.

My Chain:

DAW: Sonar in 64 bit mode.

Vintage Channel 64
De-Esser set to 2.6Khz (Any higher and it didn't cath the sharpness).
Compressor about 1 dB GR with attack 45ms, Release 42 ms, Ratio 1.2:1 (Sidechain hipass at 100Hz).

PSP MasterQ FAT mode
Hipass at 30Hz (12 dB/Oct)
+0.48 dB at 48 Hz Q 0.56
-1 dB at 3.81 Khz Q 1.16

Waves Trans-X Wide
Range 6
Sensitivity: 9.1
Duration 6.82
Release 10.02

Voxengo Warmifier
Type 6550
PRM V -10 dB
PRM I -3.5 dB
Filter Off
EQ Off

Voxengo Elelphant
Clip mode
4x oversampling
St Link off
DC Filter at 12 Hz (Type Bessel)
Max 1 dB clipping

Voxengo Elephant
EL-3 mode
Speed Fast
4x Oversampling
St Link off
Max 2 dB limiting

TPDF dither.

In retrospect, using a more controlable de-esser and ditching the Trans-X should have given me a pretty clean master through a relatively simple signal chain.

Alistair
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cerberus

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 01:04:56 PM »

alistair, i think a better solution would be to de-ess the vocals first. that usually doesn't affect the snare too much.  i didn't find it was a problem.

jeff dinces

UnderTow

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2006, 03:16:23 PM »

cerberus wrote on Fri, 17 November 2006 19:04

alistair, i think a better solution would be to de-ess the vocals first. that usually doesn't affect the snare too much.  i didn't find it was a problem.

jeff dinces



What do you mean? It is the very first thing in the chain.

Alistair
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Ged Leitch

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 04:27:13 PM »

I was 0192...


The mix was great, no need to screw it up.

so, just a tad of...


PLPPar EQ

hi pass@ 30hz

+ 1db@3khz

+ 0.5db@ 19khz



ozone multiband

Xover @ 210hz and 2.10khz

ratio on every band @ 2.00

compressing no more than 2db each band for a little tightnening


Steinberg Magneto

Drive @ +10 (not for level , just to tame some peaks before clipping)

Wavelab master fader @ +3db - clipping @ max of 1.2db

Ozone limiter - brickwall - prevent intersample clips -
limiting by a max of 2db.

UV22HR dither to 16 bits.

Thats it.
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http://bitheadmastering.co.uk/

"...But I don't wanna be a pirate!"

pob

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2006, 05:49:18 PM »

Hi all,
I was 7777. Have learnt a lot from taking part in this. Here was my virtual chain..

Sony Oxford EQ -
HPF 32hz  Q - 0.17

UAD Fairchild -  for glue
Bias set to 1 o'clock
Gain 16
Threshold 9
Time Const 5

UAD Pultec Pro

Lo - 60cps boost 2.5 cut 0.8
Hi - 8kcs  boost 1
Atten - 20kcs cut 1
Peak - 200cps boost 1.5
Dip - 300cps boost 1.8
Peak - 2kcs boost 1

UAD Neve 3306 - for swing

Limiter not engaged
Ratio 1.5:1
Gain +1
Recovery  a1
Threshold 4dB

Signal was then sent parallel to a URS 1980 comp and N eq - this is then summed with the original on the master bus at a level of -14db

Settings for 1980 comp
Ratio 2:1
Attack 52ms
Release 102ms
Threshold -35.8dB

URS N EQ -
HPF 70
LPF 14
+7.2 @ 60hz shelf
+ 5.2 @ 1.6kHz
+3.6 @ 10kHz shelf

Then into...

UAD Multi Band -
for de-essing about -1.5
comp on the sub -1 just on the on the 'my crazy people at' bit
and adding a bit of jump by expanding in the lower mids by +1dB.

UAD Precision eq (this is where it went wrong, after hitting the bypass button, when writing down the settings today)
HPF 20Hz
25hz cut 2dB Q of 4
114Hz cut 0.5dB Q of 8
4.1kHz cut 4.1 kHz Q of 4

UAD Precision Limiter
Input 0.17 dB
Output - 0.1
Auto Release

Sony Inflator
Input 0
Effect 100%
Curve -37.2
Output -0.3dB

Used POWr 3 dither.

cheers
Paul o' Brien

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Ed Littman

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2006, 10:35:16 PM »

Wump 9 signal chain for
#6666
HA HA!! I made it into NOWO’s top 3 Shocked

I felt mine was brite but did not go on my instinct to tame the top…I lost focus.
These quotes really hit home for me. I just may print them out & post them on my wall........

Quote:

easier to get from mediocre to good, than good to great imo.

...consistently great, even harder.

Jerry Tub


Quote:

Obviously I don't do any recording (or mixing), but sure, as I gained experience and dialed in my work flow, the length of time required to master a record dropped rather dramatically. I think this is not only natural, but beneficial, as I have a theory that working quickly keeps me fresh. That doesn't mean I rush through projects, but I don't waste any time on unnecessary experimentation - I make any changes I think are needed and move along. A decade ago, it was common for me to spend upwards of 8-10 hours on each album, now it's typically about half that time...

Brad Blackwood



Wavelab 6
RME 9632 card
Mytek stereo dac

IBIS
+2db 50hz  small q
+2db 880hz mid q
+4db 10k (yikes!!)

hedd adc

capture with  RME AES-32 card
WL6  

algorithmix red
+2db 78hz  smallQ
+1db 3k  wide Q
+1db 5.74k   wideQ
Waves de-esser
4952hz,  threshold   -12db
clip master fader +5.5 db
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present

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Re: WUMP NINE techniques and discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2006, 07:43:12 AM »

5060 reporting back...

I did this at work during a dinner break from a tracking session,
with PT, monitoring through Dynaudio soffits.

I went for the de-essing thing so

split mid/side

MID
in PT:
Waves RenEQ HP 20 Hz
Waves DeEsser Threshold -35 (!) sidechain around 8000 kHz

external insert: Orban 622B Parametric eq
+1 @ 80 Hz Q around 1.4
+0.5 @ 200 Hz wide Q
+1 @ around 1.7 kHz wide Q
-1 @ 4 kHz wide Q

SIDE
in PT:
RenEQ
Low Shelf -8 60 Hz
+0.5 @ 620 Hz wide Q
+0.5 @ 1.2 kHz wide Q
+1 @ 4 kHz wide Q

BACK TO STEREO
external insert:
Manley Vari-Mu (non-mastering version)
Fast attack, medium release
GR around 2 dB during loudest bits

Then took a 24bit WAV file home

in Wavelab:
Ozone Exciter
+0.4 band 20 Hz-300 Hz
+0.6 band 3 kHz-16 kHz

Did some hard clipping and then
Waves L2 (yeah well...)
limiting around 2 dB during loudest peaks

Ozone MB+ dither to 16bits

and that's it

It was done in a bit of a hurry and mostly ITB, because I didn't want to do too much repatching.
It was interesting to use the Orban and Ren EQ's in tandem. Two unlikely candidates when it comes to mastering.

Again, this was great fun

Rogier
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