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Author Topic: mixing help  (Read 5920 times)

canada

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mixing help
« on: November 11, 2006, 11:51:22 am »

Hi.

I'm in the process of starting to mix my band's album and I'm having trouble mostly because I wrote and recorded all of it.
And because I suck at mixing.  Our budget doesn't allow another set of ears until mastering unfortunately... it's non-negotiable as we have a tour and SXSW in March coming right up.

We have a weird kind of sound and I'm having trouble getting perspective because my ears are shot.

Was recorded with Nuendo, I'm wondering if my money wasn't better spent on a different platform but meh.  We have an assortment of shit gear, like Audio Technicas, Radial DIs and a Motu interface.

Any criticism is helpful, thanks!

http://www.myspace.com/satellitelot
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Podgorny

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2006, 12:58:57 pm »


I think you're psyching yourself out.  Your band's sound is unusual, so you don't have a standard by which to judge, like you would with a more straght-forward rock or pop group.  So, from my standpoint, having never heard you before, the stuff sounds great.

I could offer my personal opinion on sounds, or even offer to mix a song for free, just to give some perspective, but I don't think you need that.  

Think of Flaming Lips.  I think the fact that their records are unique sonically, helps define their sound.  The stuff I heard on MySpace sounds like YOU.

So yeah, keep doing what you're doing.

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rankus

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2006, 01:36:46 pm »



Yep, I agree.  Sounds fine ... your beating yourself up over nothing.  Be proud you did a great job.

PS:  Don't bash on Nuendo... We have operatives everywhere... (And it works just fine as a DAW) (Proven by your recording!)(LOL)
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gatino

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2006, 12:50:16 am »

good stuff! get an investor or several, work out some deal.
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j.hall

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2006, 03:51:23 pm »

it sounds like it wants to be something really cool but is hiding behind the curtain of "lo-fi".

lo-fi can be cool, but not very often and when it is cool, it's typically something very well done, just "trashy" sounding.

you need to "vibe it up" sonically.

sometimes the best mixes are the ones that don't make any sense.  or at least certain elements don't make much sense until you bring all the other things into the mix and put the puzzle together.

dave fridmann (flaming lips producer/mixer) is a master at this.
tchad blake as well.

the first step is to learn the room you are working in.  cause the mix might sound stellar in there, but horrible every where else.

my biggest comment on the current mixes (on myspace) would be the lead vocal is not happening.

the performance is great.  the EQ, compression and effects are off, IMO.  get that right and everything will fall into place.

remember, there are no rules for injecting vibe.  try panning all the drums hard left and smashing the crap out of them with compression.  see what that might force you to do with other elements.
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Tom C

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2006, 05:02:25 pm »

[speaking about 'Up against the far...']

I like this style a lot, but I think you should work on the vocals
a bit more.
What I would change:
  • try to isolate the male vocals in the center a bit more, make  them louder and give them a bit more punch.
  • I'd double the female vox and pan them hard left and right

In general you could use the stereo image better, your drums
come all exactly from the center, and doubling and panning
the guitar like the female vox is worth a try, too.

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pg666

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2006, 07:14:22 pm »

my biggest gripe would be that a lot of the effects/synths sounded like factory presets and sort of 1 dimensional. buss sounds together.. distort them.. compress them.. add ring modulator.. just something to give them a sense of musical purpose. early '80s Colin Newman is a good reference point for what i'm getting at..

i agree with others about the vocals.
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canada

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2006, 07:53:14 pm »

thanks for the comments, guys!  really appreciate it.  like I said, these are what-I-have-thus-far-mixes.  luckily, I don't have to pay tons of money to play around with them as much as I need to.  I'm excited to try all your suggestions... especially about the panning (which is something I used to overdue ALOT, so I'm gun-shy and have been "keeping it real" which isn't working!) and more in-depth effects (I haven't been using presets, but I also haven't been trying to recreate a Quincy Jones production either, maybe I need some Quincy in my life).

you guys re-inspired me!   Smile
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Tom C

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2006, 06:28:35 am »

canada wrote on Tue, 14 November 2006 01:53

especially about the panning (which is something I used to overdue ALOT, so I'm gun-shy and have been "keeping it real" which isn't working!)


You can't overdo panning, but you can pan the wrong instruments.
Have a look at Terry's 'Whatever works' forum, Terry is a big
friend of hard-left/center/hard-right paning.

This never worked for me (there was always some kind of hole in the
stereo image) until I listened to some of his recordings and
understood some of the basic ideas behind it.

[Edit because of spellllingg]
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j.hall

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2006, 12:00:45 am »

i can't remember the last time i "soft" panned ANYTHING.

it's hard left or right or dead center.  that's it.

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Podgorny

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2006, 01:13:32 am »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 14 November 2006 23:00

i can't remember the last time i "soft" panned ANYTHING.

it's hard left or right or dead center.  that's it.




I still don't get this.
Of course, to be completely honest, I don't get a lot of the things Terry Manning preaches.

If I want to create an interesting stereo field, it seems perfectly normal to pan things all about.  Not to say there isn't an intelligent order to such things.  I just like hearing the toms move from left to right, without being at the far end of the stereo spectrum.

I guess it comes down to personal preference.
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j.hall

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2006, 04:36:28 pm »

i didn't start doing this by terry's suggestion.  i've been doing this for a while, just never paid much attention to the "habit".

if i need something to balance across the field i'll typically send it to a bit of verb or delay that only returns to the opposite side.

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wwittman

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2006, 08:37:28 pm »

ditto, I almost never put anything anywhere but left, right, or centre.

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craig boychuk

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2006, 09:24:43 pm »

I dunno man, hard panning the toms?

Harsh tokes.


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mattrussell

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2006, 10:35:09 am »

i sent you a PM.  

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matt russell
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canada

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2006, 02:45:25 pm »

wwittman wrote on Fri, 17 November 2006 01:37

ditto, I almost never put anything anywhere but left, right, or centre.



wow, I would have never guessed that.  What about keyboard swells, tom fills, vocal delays... seems crazy to me, but I guess there's no "right way" to mix it seems! Very Happy
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Tom C

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2006, 04:26:48 pm »

canada wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 20:45

wwittman wrote on Fri, 17 November 2006 01:37

ditto, I almost never put anything anywhere but left, right, or centre.



wow, I would have never guessed that.  What about keyboard swells, tom fills, vocal delays... seems crazy to me, but I guess there's no "right way" to mix it seems! Very Happy


Wandering keyboard/synthesizer sounds and tom fills are (for me)
stereo effects.
These are obviously not panned hard left/right.
I think people speak about the base instrument tracks
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wwittman

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2006, 07:54:59 pm »

tom fills "move" between the two mics picking them up, for me, usually.

if i DO close mic them, I pan them into place.

but it's a rare exception.

keyboards, guitars, vocals, delays, reverbs, as well as bass drum and snare drum, ... all L, R, OR Cntre.

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rodge

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2006, 03:01:54 pm »

keeping hard panning in mind with drums. you would pan the direct mic's HARD, but the room, overhead, and pzm would be centered?
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dconstruction

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2006, 03:07:26 pm »

I have to say, reading this thread and trying out the L/R/C only thing helped me a good deal just last night - if not in the mix itself, then in limiting the 180 choices I was being made a coward by.  And frankly, I think it also forced me to rely more on the tone of each instrument - EQ and volume adjustment - to best "sit" each track in the mix.

So, for that: thanks.

L
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Tomas Danko

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2006, 03:08:10 pm »

rodge wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 20:01

keeping hard panning in mind with drums. you would pan the direct mic's HARD, but the room, overhead, and pzm would be centered?


That's the only exception to prove the rule.

If you have anything recorded in stereo and hard panning left and right makes it sound too funky (ie 8 bar tom fills mimicing a jet plane passing by) you can narrow it towards the center to fit the mix.

Then again, if you had positioned the stereo mic setup differently it would probably not happen.

Not sure what we should call this "manoeuver"... Foldback seems to be taken. hehe
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Tomas Danko

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2006, 03:20:36 pm »

dconstruction wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 20:07

I have to say, reading this thread and trying out the L/R/C only thing helped me a good deal just last night - if not in the mix itself, then in limiting the 180 choices I was being made a coward by.  And frankly, I think it also forced me to rely more on the tone of each instrument - EQ and volume adjustment - to best "sit" each track in the mix.

So, for that: thanks.

L


Absolutely. If you need to start panning a sound around to make it fit, perhaps it should not be there in the first place the way it is (or at all). I find that "The Right Way" (well, not the right way, but the right, center and left way!) makes you question tracks for the final mix.

Which is always a good thing.

If it can't exist L, C or R, is it really good enough to exist at all?

"Pan law, it's just not a problem anymore."
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pg666

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2006, 04:29:24 pm »

Quote:

If it can't exist L, C or R, is it really good enough to exist at all?


can't say i agree with this at all. sounds usually don't fall magically into place when stereo mic'ing, though i don't think that makes them unusable. one side of a drum overhead pair may be picking up a lot of cymbal brashness (or even snare bleed) and i wouldn't want that panned all the way, while the other side might sit perfectly panned hard.

i'm also a fan of having quieter parts panned a little narrower (like 9 'o clock/3 'o clock at most) and then having it panned hard when the loud part kicks in. cool dynamic effect.

i used to think instruments should automatically sit neatly when i stereo mic'ed them, but in retrospect i think i was probably compromising the individual sounds by adhering to some 'philosophy'. i'm glad to be able to pan things anywhere, if only for a few minor elements.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2006, 06:15:31 pm »

pg666 wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 21:29

Quote:

If it can't exist L, C or R, is it really good enough to exist at all?


can't say i agree with this at all. sounds usually don't fall magically into place when stereo mic'ing, though i don't think that makes them unusable. one side of a drum overhead pair may be picking up a lot of cymbal brashness (or even snare bleed) and i wouldn't want that panned all the way, while the other side might sit perfectly panned hard.

i'm also a fan of having quieter parts panned a little narrower (like 9 'o clock/3 'o clock at most) and then having it panned hard when the loud part kicks in. cool dynamic effect.

i used to think instruments should automatically sit neatly when i stereo mic'ed them, but in retrospect i think i was probably compromising the individual sounds by adhering to some 'philosophy'. i'm glad to be able to pan things anywhere, if only for a few minor elements.


You've got a good point there, 666.

Things rarely do end up magically in place when stereo mic'ing. I agree. Then again, I'm not a world class engineer. Not even third class! Smile And that is why I fold back the stereo image of some of my stereo recordings on a regular basis myself. Which means that I agree with you on empirical basis.

However, I do not use this as an excuse to abandon the L-C-R concept while mixing. I hope you understand what I mean.

And just like you, I grow the sound field ridiculously wide during the loud parts (ie the chorus).

Personally, I achieve this using delays (utilizing the Haas effect), reverbs and ensemble/Dimension D effects mixed into the L-C-R scenery. YMMV, of course.

Regards,

Tomas Danko
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wwittman

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2006, 12:11:50 am »

it's not "magically"... it's a matter of placing the mics in the right place.

no magic involved.

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compasspnt

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2006, 04:52:23 am »

canada wrote on Sun, 26 November 2006 14:45


... seems crazy to me, but I guess there's no "right way" to mix it seems!


Actually, there is.
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pg666

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2006, 11:16:37 am »

Quote:

it's not "magically"... it's a matter of placing the mics in the right place.

no magic involved.


i've yet to hear a drumset that wasn't lopsided in some way. if i find a great sound that needs a little balancing stereo-wise, i reach for the pan knobs. in the past i'd back up the mics to balance it more, but i never liked the way it sounded as much so i quit doing that.

or maybe i should learn to like the sound of a 16" crash coming directly from the right side..
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maxim

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2006, 04:31:31 pm »

c mccyrry wrote:

"I guess there's no "right way" to mix it seems! "

no, but there is a wrong way (see your sig)
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canada

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2006, 04:50:00 pm »

maxim wrote on Thu, 30 November 2006 21:31

c mccyrry wrote:

"I guess there's no "right way" to mix it seems! "

no, but there is a wrong way (see your sig)


I don't get it.
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maxim

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2006, 05:10:46 pm »

malcolm x said:

"wrong is wrong"


(maybe, this thread should be in 'whatever works')

personally, when i want to learn something, i'm more interested in wrong than right, anyway

i'll know right when i see it, but i don't want to see wrong if i can help it

in the end though, wrong might just be the new right (and the new right is definitely very wrong)
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bobby yarrow

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2007, 11:57:42 pm »

1.  This L/C/R thing makes no sense to me at all.  I almost never hard pan anything, even reverb returns, and when I do it's for effect.  The only things that go in the center for me are the main vox and the kick, snare & bass.  On good systems, you can hear tiny bits of panning, and it's pleasing as hell.  There may be no wrong way to mix, but if there is, I have no doubt that exclusive hard or center panning is the wrong way (unless you track everything knowing you're going to pan like that, and narrow the field with mic placement).  This is another one of those magic internet things, like 4-mic drum mic'ing;  I've never seen a real-life engineer mix L/C/R, but it seems popular on the forums.

2.  I agree about the lo-fi masking thing, and some of the sounds (drums & vox especially) are suffering for it.  All the same, the mixes sound pretty good. Given your caveats, I don't know how much better you'll do without help and a lot of time.  So, yeah, be proud.
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rankus

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2007, 04:27:51 pm »

bobby yarrow wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 20:57



1.  This L/C/R thing makes no sense to me at all. ... snip...  I've never seen a real-life engineer mix L/C/R, but it seems popular on the forums.

.


You had better check the credits of some of the posters around here!
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Version

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2007, 05:50:54 pm »

Podgorny wrote on Tue, 14 November 2006 22:13


Of course, to be completely honest, I don't get a lot of the things Terry Manning preaches.



Terry puts on his pants just like we do, one leg at a time...

but once his pants are on...

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2007, 09:42:27 pm »

rankus wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 16:27

bobby yarrow wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 20:57



1.  This L/C/R thing makes no sense to me at all. ... snip...  I've never seen a real-life engineer mix L/C/R, but it seems popular on the forums.

.


You had better check the credits of some of the posters around here!



My modifier is in the wrong  place.  In real life, I've never seen an engineer mix this way.  I'm sure the folks here actually do it, and I'm sure that all of them are real, but if not for online forums I wouldn't know that anyone mixed this way.  
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j.hall

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2007, 03:42:13 pm »

from what i've been able to gather from reliable sources and first hand conversations, a lot of the "A-list" mixers work like this.  not saying it's justified, i'm just saying..........................
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Vladislavs Korehovs

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2007, 01:18:48 am »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 10 January 2007 14:42

from what i've been able to gather from reliable sources and first hand conversations, a lot of the "A-list" mixers work like this.  not saying it's justified, i'm just saying..........................

Are those Engeneers doing Indee?
Listen to WHATEVER SONG ON MTV, VIVA, Whenever...
There is no L/C/R on popular songs...
You should partition space with pan just like you do with EQ in my oppinion.

All this reminds me, old consoles there was now panner potenciometer, but was L/R/C switch, maybe thease folks are from that century?

Moreover in Book "Mixing Engeneer Handbook", None of popular Engeners is returning Effects in Mono or hard panned them.
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compasspnt

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2007, 10:06:02 am »

Ha ha ha ha ha ha...
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Tomas Danko

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2007, 10:16:03 am »

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 24 January 2007 15:06

Ha ha ha ha ha ha...



Brilliant!


And you deserved that laugh big time. Very Happy


As you were.
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Re: mixing help
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2007, 03:30:31 pm »

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Wed, 24 January 2007 00:18

 maybe thease folks are from that century?




PLEASE, PLEASE tell me you meant decade........even if you didn't....just say you did.
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Vladislavs Korehovs

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Re: mixing help
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2007, 05:27:44 pm »

j.hall wrote on Fri, 26 January 2007 14:30

Vladislavs Korehovs wrote on Wed, 24 January 2007 00:18

 maybe thease folks are from that century?




PLEASE, PLEASE tell me you meant decade........even if you didn't....just say you did.


Did
Smile)))))))))
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