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Author Topic: Optimal Size Iso for Leslie  (Read 2802 times)

xAm

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Optimal Size Iso for Leslie
« on: November 04, 2006, 10:47:11 am »

OK, this might be a stupid question, but what would be an optimal sized isolation booth for say a Leslie 122?

Currently, the plans have a 6x6x?? Iso booth (Iso-1). There is a 45 degree wall in one side of the Iso for a door, so it's not a true square.

There's a second Iso (Iso-2) that's really a hall/Iso. It's 12.5'x50"x?? This hall/iso comes from the lounge to the control room and the studio.

I Haven't decided on ceiling height(s) but can probably go to just about 14'.

My guess is that Iso-1 is too small for a decent sound from a Leslie, but if it's best to resize it a couple of feet, then so be it.

I actually thinking that the hall/iso would be fine for the Leslie, but I just gotta ask for the sake of not screwing up too badly.

Thanx!
Max
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Ethan Winer

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Re: Optimal Size Iso for Leslie
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2006, 11:20:52 am »

Max,

> what would be an optimal sized isolation booth for say a Leslie 122? <

The same size as your main live room. Shocked

> Currently, the plans have a 6x6x?? <

Ouch - no!

Seriously, a square room is a disaster, and all small rooms sound bad unless you make them totally dead. And by "dead" I mean down to 100 Hz or lower, not just "hand claps dead" using inch-thick foam. Unless you truly need total isolation, you'll probably do better with a large gobo between the Leslie and everything else in the room.

--Ethan

xAm

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Re: Optimal Size Iso for Leslie
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2006, 01:26:22 pm »

Ethan Winer wrote on Sat, 04 November 2006 11:20

Max,

> what would be an optimal sized isolation booth for say a Leslie 122? <

The same size as your main live room. Shocked

> Currently, the plans have a 6x6x?? <

Ouch - no!

Seriously, a square room is a disaster, and all small rooms sound bad unless you make them totally dead. And by "dead" I mean down to 100 Hz or lower, not just "hand claps dead" using inch-thick foam. Unless you truly need total isolation, you'll probably do better with a large gobo between the Leslie and everything else in the room.

--Ethan



Ethan,

As I said, the room plan so far is NOT a square. Technically it's a pentagon... 72 x 72 x 32-1/2 x 21-1/2 x 64 with the door in the 64" angled wall.

My primary intent for the iso is guitar amps. It WILL be dead - 2" or 4" 703 on all surfaces. If it can double as an iso for anything else, that's great. If not... oh well.

The question arises from the [occasional] need to track live, where I don't want the Leslie bleeding into the drums, vox, etc, -OR- when I don't want the other instruments bleeding into the Leslie. Otherwise, my goal is to ALWAYS track any Leslie (as well as everything else) in the main room.

Max
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franman

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Re: Optimal Size Iso for Leslie
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2006, 05:39:21 pm »

Ethan is right.. with really small Iso's you have to make em dead, and consider some corner Bass Trapping so you don't get a dead in the Mids and Tops but boomy sounding room.

You're gonna close mic the Leslie and they're loud enuf that the room shouldn't have that much of an impact, but I'll tell you that I had a couple of great experiences recording Leslies and Guitar Amps in Hallways... they can get a really direct but distant sound with some 'space' in it.. I am always baffled by the approach of micing guitar amps 2" from the Grill cloth.. have you ever seen a guitarist put his/her ear 2" from the cabinet to 'get a sound'? Not me... Why not put the mic up around ear height 3' away from the cabinet where the guitarist stands while he's getting a sound?? This is, of course assuming that you're not trying to mic an entire band in a small room AND that you're not looking for the useful blead between all the instruments...

Anyway, that's just some ranting from an ex-engineer turned acoustician and record critic!! sorry.

As far as the Iso Booths remember that Vocals WILL adopt the sound of the room you record in, so if you're gonna make a small dead room, don't forget the BASS TRAPS (Man I sound like a broken record even to myself!!).. Otherwise you will end up with a dead boomy room... not a good program...
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Ethan Winer

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Re: Optimal Size Iso for Leslie
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2006, 11:50:09 am »

Max,

> As I said, the room plan so far is NOT a square. Technically it's a pentagon... <

Understood, but just because one corner is cut off, you still have at least some of the problems of a square room.

> It WILL be dead - 2" or 4" 703 on all surfaces. <

Make that four inches, and add even more around the corners as Fran suggested.

> The question arises from the [occasional] need to track live, where I don't want the Leslie bleeding into the drums, vox, etc, <

Of course, understood.

I'm sometimes criticized for being the bearer of bad news. So please forgive me for that! Laughing

One time I received an angry PM in a home theater type forum from a guy who was upset because I was too straigtforward in my reply to someone. The original poster had measured his room with an audiophile test CD that plays tones at third octaves, and he proudly proclaimed his room to be very flat. I was just "doing my job" when I explained that his room surely had a span of at least 20 dB if not 30 dB or more, and he hadn't really measured properly. I was really nice about how I said it! But I was accused of being a killjoy anyway. Well, sorry! The only alternative is to pat them nicely on the head and say, "Good job. I'm sure your room sounds perfect."

Very Happy

--Ethan

franman

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Re: Optimal Size Iso for Leslie
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2006, 02:20:27 pm »

Ethan... I actually end up apologizing at about half of my "first meetings" with new clients, for sounding like the Grim Reaper.. I call myself the "bad news up front guy"!!... It's the only way to be.
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xAm

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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2006, 05:54:55 pm »

Gentlemen, yeah, I mean YOU two; Francis AND Ethan!!
(talk about you guys being cynical!)

Hey, how can you think someone being honest with ya' is being the "bearer of bad news"? Like I've said, I'd rather know I screwed up earlier on than get to the end and THEN find out I'm screwed!

I too learned to wear asbestoes underwear a LONG time ago, so you ain't gonna' hurt my feelings... As a matter of fact, I take on the Grip Reaper SOB role quite a bit at the day gig. I guess birds of a feather, huh?

OK, about the 6x6 iso... I guess my understanding of the math was wrong. I thought that as long no more 50% of a room's dimensions were equal, then the axial modes were not equal to the fundamental nodes of a square.... musta' got that concept confused with something else. (Like THAT's some sort of new revalation...)

So, should I save the building costs of the small iso and put that money into some really good portable gobo walls? I dunno. I don't think I can justify the cost of an iso booth that would be a much bigger chunk out my little 1200 sq. ft. studio. Rearranging the dimensions doesn't help that much does it?... say 5x7 or 4x8? The 4x8 would be worse than the 5x7, but the material usage of the 5x7 is really not cost effective, but if it gets me where I need to be...

Any thoughts?

Thanx,
Max
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Ethan Winer

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Re: !
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2006, 01:04:36 pm »

Max,

> So, should I save the building costs of the small iso and put that money into some really good portable gobo walls? <

As I always say, the best iso booth is your main room. Oops, I see that I already said that here! Twisted Evil

I'm a big fan of gobos, and not only because I sell them. Embarassed If they're tall enough, and low to the floor, they can be remarkably effective. You won't get total isolation of course, but even 10 to 20 dB at mid frequencies is often enough.

--Ethan

Teddy G.

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Re: Optimal Size Iso for Leslie
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2006, 01:11:59 pm »

All the dimensions being thrown around confuses me?

You have a main room -- how big? What treatment?

You have an "iso booth" - how big? What treatment?

You have a hallway - how big? What treatment?

There are probably other rooms(And there's always "outside"), which even if not "studio rooms" may serve, at times, "perfectly"...?


The main room MIGHT be the "normal" place for the Leslie("Best" dimensions for sound, generally???)? I'd want to show it off, at least, in the most public space, being used or not!!! The hallway, at times, when it "works" - Try it! different ways - leslie here, mic(s) there, etc. The small iso booth sounds like the place to be DEAD, for vocal and solo instrument, maybe Leslie, at times.

While a Leslie would be wonderful thing to have(Along with the B-3 to go with it!), personally, I wouldn't work too hard at making a "special" place for it. Doing the rest of the place "normally" with standard-type treatment, then "finding" THE place(At least to keep it normally) might be better? Which mics and where to place them may always be more important?

Giving one an "absolute" for "where the Leslie goes", dimensions, etc? Not possible -- not from here, maybe not from anywhere(The Leslie designers certainly never specified a "perfect" space to use the thing - they just wanted us to buy them - wish I had......).

I remember this "Modern Home magazine" space(A beautiful, properly dimmed, living room - not mine.), where I fooled around on a B-3 with Leslie... Quite a memory! Sound quality? I don't know? The "perfect blonde", who was visiting from Michigan, and listening to me play, was sort've dominating my thoughts at the time. Sounded OK to me, she seemed to like it - not a bass trap or diffuser in sight... There can only be a "perfect space" for a Leslie, "now", for "this thing". Or, at least "good enough". Next time? Not even close. That's why Hammonds and Leslies were portable(Well, 4 big guys portable - not "me portable".), I guess?

TG
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xAm

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Re: Optimal Size Iso for Leslie
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2006, 07:29:27 pm »

Teddy G. wrote on Mon, 06 November 2006 13:11

All the dimensions being thrown around confuses me?


Me too!!

Quote:

You have a main room -- how big? What treatment?


Still finishing the drawings up... but so far, finished interior will be: 26x18.5 Studs are 2x6 wood on independant sealed concrete slabs. Surfaces will be varied, but primarily 1" Oak, Cherry, Cedar on 2 layers of .625 fire rated gypsum. Ceiling is to be 2x8 with same treatment as walls.

Trapping and difussion as needed. My maximum ceiling height is right at 13.5 feet, but I'm trying to stay right at 11'-4" (golden ratio).

Quote:

You have an "iso booth" - how big? What treatment?


Well maybe... that's the question. I had originally thought about taking approx 24 sq ft and chopping it into an irregular shaped isolation booth.

Quote:

You have a hallway - how big? What treatment?


Hallway's tight... 46.5" x 17'-3" (I've redesigned in the last 24 hours.) If need be, it can be used for different stuff.

Quote:

There are probably other rooms(And there's always "outside"), which even if not "studio rooms" may serve, at times, "perfectly"...?


The CR is 21'-6" x 14'-9" with a downward sloping ceiling with a mid point at 9'-3" (again golden ratio)

"Lounge" area is 30'x12' and will be divided into a full bath w/shower, kitchenette, office, server room and office/lounge and is physically isolated from the rest of the 1200 (30x40) sq ft structure,

Quote:

The main room MIGHT be the "normal" place for the Leslie("Best" dimensions for sound, generally???)? I'd want to show it off, at least, in the most public space, being used or not!!! The hallway, at times, when it "works" - Try it! different ways - leslie here, mic(s) there, etc. The small iso booth sounds like the place to be DEAD, for vocal and solo instrument, maybe Leslie, at times.

While a Leslie would be wonderful thing to have(Along with the B-3 to go with it!), personally, I wouldn't work too hard at making a "special" place for it. Doing the rest of the place "normally" with standard-type treatment, then "finding" THE place(At least to keep it normally) might be better? Which mics and where to place them may always be more important?


I hear ya! The best place for a B3 and a Leslie is under a good player!

Quote:

Giving one an "absolute" for "where the Leslie goes", dimensions, etc? Not possible -- not from here, maybe not from anywhere(The Leslie designers certainly never specified a "perfect" space to use the thing - they just wanted us to buy them - wish I had......).


OK, I'll be a smart-ass... I DID!!! (Not a B3, but an RT-3) Part of the deal with getting the RT-3 for FREE, is that I had to give up the 122. I'm looking for one now, but not too hard... gotta' get the damn studio built FIRST!

Quote:

I remember this "Modern Home magazine" space(A beautiful, properly dimmed, living room - not mine.), where I fooled around on a B-3 with Leslie... Quite a memory! Sound quality? I don't know? The "perfect blonde", who was visiting from Michigan, and listening to me play, was sort've dominating my thoughts at the time. Sounded OK to me, she seemed to like it - not a bass trap or diffuser in sight... There can only be a "perfect space" for a Leslie, "now", for "this thing". Or, at least "good enough". Next time? Not even close. That's why Hammonds and Leslies were portable(Well, 4 big guys portable - not "me portable".), I guess?

TG


You ol' horn-dawg!

Max
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