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Author Topic: A Theory  (Read 6046 times)

Trumpetman2

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A Theory
« on: November 02, 2006, 09:34:43 AM »

 Rolling Eyes Guys:  Please help me out here before I make a stupid investment.  I want a trumpet sound closer to the commercial solo jazz releases on the market.  I record the horn w/a Brick and/or a Ward-Beck 470D stereo module, using a Senn 441 and straight into a Tascam DA38.  The mixer is a small Soundtracs Topaz and my verb is an older Roland 330.  I am not dissatisfied w/this, but would like to improve it a bit.

My theory is that I would probably do better by buying a real good verb, rather than a better mic and/or mic pre - am I wrong here?  Seems like the reverb gives the "final tonality" to the horn sound, more so than the various mics and pres do? Rolling Eyes  
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Tim Halligan

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2006, 02:01:27 AM »

I suspect that what you are hearing is the sound of a stunning room - which you are possibly mistaking for a gucci 'verb.

I would look at a really good mic. It's something that will serve you well for decades with care.

I'd also look at a good compresser.

I'd also investigate the possibility of turning your rig into something more portable so you can rent the really good rooms to record in, or spend some dollars on your own room.

I'd look at a new 'verb as a last resort/ cherry on top kind of deal.


Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Tim
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Trumpetman2

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2006, 07:03:43 AM »

 Razz Tim:  Thanks for the reply.  I hear what you are saying, so what would be a great mic for trumpet?  I have a variety like Beyer ribbons (130 and 160)Senn 441 Oktava M319 (Jolly modification) and various other similar ones; nothing spectacular....was thinking of buying that new Crowley & Trip "Naked Eye" ribbon.....what do you recommend?
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Fletcher

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2006, 07:27:37 AM »

A couple of things I've foudn with horns in general... the first is that a horn player will gravitate to the spot in the room where they hear their horn sound best... so what I would recommend to you is that instead of predetermining where your horn is going to go/be recorded you walk around the room like a horn player and find "the spot" where your horn sound really opens up in the room... my experience also tells me that those spots are generally near walls so the player can really feel the sound bounce off a wall but as always, YMMV.

When it comes to Trumpet my favorite mic is usually a Sony C-37a [early version with 6au6 tube] or the C-37p [which is a FET mic that runs on phantom power].  There is another version called the C-37 FET which runs on an internal 9v battery and the C-38 which I usually don't like as much on trumpet as the previously mentioned C-37's... I think that is mainly due to the different design of the head grill casing but I digress.

The bitch of the beast in my world is that I haven't owned a C-37 for years which has meant I have had to find an alternative solution... which after many trials and damn near as many errors I finally found the Royer SF-1.

The SF-1 captures the top end of a well played horn with the silk and opulence I want to hear from the horn but without the screeeetchy 6-7kHz 'ice pick in the forehead' shit that can also happen with condenser mics nor the 'honk' of a lot of dynamic mics.  The other cool thing is that its pickup pattern is Figure 8 so I get a bit of room in with the trumpet sound... not enough to make the horn sound cloudy or distant but enough to give a sense of space and dare I say a bit more of what got the horn player to gravitate to the spot where they felt best playing the horn.

As far as mic-preamps, converters, storage, blah, blah, blah... that is another can of worms I don't feel like opening at the moment but for whatever it might be worth... I've found that the mic is the most important part of the chain [after the player's tone!!] when it comes to recording trumpet.

Best of luck with all you do.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Trumpetman2

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2006, 07:46:36 AM »

 Smile Fletcher:  Thanks so much!  You are indeed the man!  I have to try out the SF1!!!!  and try some of your ideas!!!!! Smile
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littlehat

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2006, 03:36:35 AM »

The Beyer M88 is now my first choice. Honestly (you knew this was coming) a good player with a good sounding horn makes the biggest difference. You can get away with a Beta 58 in a garage into an MBox on a good horn in good hands. Also, if your room sounds good, anything in omni can sound good (directionality encourages high end peaks) but ribbons are somewhat immune to this because of a little freq null right where a horn can bite you.
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max cooper

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2006, 01:50:12 PM »

Fletcher wrote on Fri, 03 November 2006 06:27

my experience also tells me that those spots are generally near walls so the player can really feel the sound bounce off a wall but as always, YMMV.




This works with things other than horns.

I read that Karen Carpenter sang with a U87 right up against the glass.  It's a very cool, subtle thing.

Acoustic guitars benefit from this too.
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Trumpetman2

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2006, 08:17:33 AM »

littlehat wrote on Sat, 04 November 2006 03:36

The Beyer M88 is now my first choice. Honestly (you knew this was coming) a good player with a good sounding horn makes the biggest difference. You can get away with a Beta 58 in a garage into an MBox on a good horn in good hands. Also, if your room sounds good, anything in omni can sound good (directionality encourages high end peaks) but ribbons are somewhat immune to this because of a little freq null right where a horn can bite you.



NOT REALLY.....if you had Maynard Ferguson recording on a casette recorder w/a Radio Schack mic....how do you think that would sound?  Gear does make a difference no matter who is blowing the horn.....! Very Happy
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Fletcher

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2006, 09:23:37 AM »

max cooper wrote on Sun, 05 November 2006 13:50

 
I read that Karen Carpenter sang with a U87 right up against the glass.


... and look where she is today!!  

[sorry, I know I'm going to hell for that but I couldn't resist... please carry on, nothing to see here]
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Blas

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2006, 01:29:12 PM »

That's it Fletcher, I'm installing a seatbelt to my chair before I read anymore of your replies! Very Happy

Blas
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Teddy G.

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2006, 03:38:20 PM »

"And look where she is today..."

Tis to chuckle... NOT maliciously, but... to chuckle...


F-Man! Did you ever think of taking over for that comedian, what was his name? Swore and screamed his lungs out ALL-THE-TIME??? EH-EH-EHHHHH!!!!!! Talked about driving drunk then got killed by a drunk driver? I suppose probably in the "other place" than the dear Ms. Carpenter? Wonder what mic HE used?

TG
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Phil

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2006, 06:21:48 PM »

Maybe a 666 ?
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Phil Nelson

Knastratt

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2006, 10:10:51 PM »

Fletcher wrote on Mon, 06 November 2006 15:23

max cooper wrote on Sun, 05 November 2006 13:50

 
I read that Karen Carpenter sang with a U87 right up against the glass.


... and look where she is today!!  

[sorry, I know I'm going to hell for that but I couldn't resist... please carry on, nothing to see here]


Whoever suggested that going to Hell is a bad thing?
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Larrchild

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2006, 07:04:08 PM »

If Mama Cass had shared that chicken sandwich with Karen Carpenter, they'd both be alive today.

Richard, if you are reading this, I'm on the down-helevator with Fletcher.
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Larry Janus
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littlehat

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Re: A Theory
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2006, 01:28:17 AM »

Trumpetman2 wrote on Mon, 06 November 2006 08:17

littlehat wrote on Sat, 04 November 2006 03:36

The Beyer M88 is now my first choice. Honestly (you knew this was coming) a good player with a good sounding horn makes the biggest difference. You can get away with a Beta 58 in a garage into an MBox on a good horn in good hands. Also, if your room sounds good, anything in omni can sound good (directionality encourages high end peaks) but ribbons are somewhat immune to this because of a little freq null right where a horn can bite you.



NOT REALLY.....if you had Maynard Ferguson recording on a casette recorder w/a Radio Schack mic....how do you think that would sound?  Gear does make a difference no matter who is blowing the horn.....! Very Happy



I would buy that F*****g record!
No hesitation at all. And I bet it would rock me.
Crappy gear isn't cool... no doubt.
But great music and performances from master players rules.

Fletcher, that was bad.
What makes it worse was how funny it was.
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