Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[compasspnt]

Well, finally there is scientific proof.

Everyone has always wondered why my Cardinal Points

[ktownson]

Which, in turn, explains the Open Letter to Science:

Quote:

Dear Science, Thank you so very much. Please keep up the good work. And hurry. Best regards.

And to think there are those who think this world is one big happy accident...

[Larrchild]

All fine and good until jitter conspires to collapse the stereo soundstage.

[tom eaton]

Terry,

I feel you have been shortchanged.  Months of work usually culminates in at least a modest powerpoint presentation, and all you got were two apparently handdrawn graphs.  I can certainly understand that it would take some time to fully grasp and explore NML, but upon his return Frank should have at least provided you with a t-shirt.

And, if I read your summary correctly, you are truly proposing a tri-mono approach, rather than a "stereo" approach.  Perhaps you can build a specific decode setting for those with 5.1 that would use only the front 3 speakers with no signal sharing at all between the three.

-tom

[Kendrix]

Do folks feel this concept applies to all types of arrangements / instrumentation?
How about an orchestra?  A big band? A Choir?

At some point don't you overwhelm the cardinal pan points?
If so, doesnt no mans land provide usable space in which to
1)squeeze the sounds and
2)produce a soundfield that corresponds to reality?

One interpretation of the charts is that, whether you use no mans land or not, you need to ensure that the cardinal pan points carry the appropriate amount of energy relative to the center to produce the desired width of field.  
I'm thinking this requires something to be panned hard- but not everything.

[Bill_Urick]

Kendrix wrote on Wed, 11 October 2006 04:54

Do folks feel this concept applies to all types of arrangements / instrumentation? How about an orchestra?  A big band? A Choir? At some point don't you overwhelm the cardinal pan points? If so, doesnt no mans land provide usable space in which to 1)squeeze the sounds and 2)produce a soundfield that corresponds to reality? One interpretation of the charts is that, whether you use no mans land or not, you need to ensure that the cardinal pan points carry the appropriate amount of energy relative to the center to produce the desired width of field.   I'm thinking this requires something to be panned hard- but not everything.

I think it is very important to find the most knowledgeable people in a given field, solicit their advice, and then ignore it. Later, when you realize they were correct, you will more fully appreciate their wisdom.

This has little to do with the above quote.

Re said quote: I propose, at my peril, that 1) Sounds in the real world tend to emanate from a specific position or point in space. 2) When listening to a pair of speakers any positional information other than "this sound is coming from coming from the left speaker/right speaker or both speakers equally" is ambiguous and unnecessary. and 3) The interpolation of that point of emanation by my two ears is all that is required to define a satisfactory sound field.

Please bear in mind that I am completely full of shit and have no idea what I'm talking about.

Thank you.

PS If you put on either side of a word of group of words they get all squiggly looking. It's really cool.

[zmix]

Terry, surely you jest.

A sound which is equal in volume emanating from the left and right speakers will be 3 or 6dB louder (depending on weather you measure acoustical power or voltage) than the same signal emanating from either channel alone.

This is why we have pan laws, and it's pure science.

If you don't obey the pan laws your instruments will change their level depending on where they are panned.

This is bad.

You can verify this by pressing the MONO button and panning one track in your mix left to right. If the designer of your console has done their homework, you don't need to trim the levels just because you've panned something differently.

Breaking the pan law IS a cardinal sin.

Zzzzz

[maxim]

it'a all about negative space

[compasspnt]

Hi Chuck,

Of course the bit about it being bad that the centre is 3 or 6 or whatever down is just in fun.  All good desks certainly have to have a basic pan law to correct for the buildup, and keep things "in volume" as they move.


But the part about panning mono sources MOSTLY to the three points is not in jest, as several have opined before.


Kendrix, no, I actually do not think that the Cardinal Points

[maxim]

i've been trying out the east/west method, and i have to agree that it simplifies the soundstage significantly

it also stops one from 'overloading' those cardinal points with information, which is always a good thing

i find myself putting the solos in the 'holes'

the combination of 3x mono with 'true stereo' is a good one

terry, do you use anything in stereo?

reverb, bg's, oh's, piano?

[rankus]

I have always been a L-C-R kind of guy, but since Terry has been suggesting this publicly it has grown into a religion for me... it really is "better" IMO ....

Now if I could just figure out how to pan things "South" ... or .. umm... never mind...

[Larrchild]

Roger Nichols spoke at the AES, and says never hard-pan..and HE has his own plugin.

Yer gonna confuse all these kids now, Terry.

[compasspnt]

Larrchild wrote on Wed, 11 October 2006 14:03

Roger Nichols spoke at the AES, and says never hard-pan...

Even more, and much more powerful, scientific proof!

[stevieeastend]

To be honest, I have never mixed that way. I do find things charming using only L-c-R to listen to but on the other hand it narrows possibilities to provide a natural feel to the arrangement. Imagine sitting in front of a band where all members would provide every element of an arrangement at once there´s is definitely more than L-C-R to the listener, isn´t it?

cheers
steveeastend

[Larrchild]

I was flogging one of my homebrew mixing projects at Criteria long ago and Tom Dowd popped his head in to say he was finished across the hall. I asked his impression, and he walked to the console, solo'd the overheads and panned them at 9 and 3, from their hard-panned positions. "There", he said.

It's been a little hard getting past that moment, but I'll try.  


Plus with hard panning, you can sing along in the car better by using the balance control to go to the side you need.