R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 13   Go Down

Author Topic: IMP7 discussion.  (Read 32814 times)

Calvin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2006, 04:31:00 PM »

rankus wrote on Sat, 23 September 2006 13:57

UnderTow wrote on Sat, 23 September 2006 03:59



Lyrics are so over rated.  Very Happy

Alistair


I'm in this camp as well... But there seems to be an equal number of folks out there that live for the lyric... Hip Hop fans come to mind...

Even though we are not listening to the lyric much, we need to remain aware that they need to be very intelegible (unless your working for Mick Jagger LOL)




Ditto all of the above.  When listening for pleasure, I catch almost none of the lyrics.  I'm only hearing sounds, texture, rhythm, etc.  However, when tracking or mixing it's real important that the lyrics be intelligible.  Even though at least some of us don't really pay attention to lyrics, the songwriter and most of the listening public do pay attention.

Logged

cerberus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2651
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #136 on: September 25, 2006, 10:58:07 PM »

i think alistair was egging you guys on with his smiley. perhaps you like his ear candy... but a great meal is not all sweets.

it starts with the song...that is what people can sing themeselves.  that is what is at the core of all great records: great songs. of course. how can we argue about that?

it can be an instrumental...the lyrics can be abstract...speak in tounges...

but there has to be a song.

the music has to be about something; or there is no song.

j.hall wrote on Wed, 20 September 2006 17:22

i'm a bit disheartened with the direction IMP is going.  seems like we're getting more and more about "look at this sweet flanger" and less and less about actually mixing a song.
... ... ...

here is the critique.

no one has done a mix that makes me want to keep listening to the song.  your job as a mixer is to sell the song.  no matter how amazing the song is, you can always kill it.  you have to make people want to listen.  find the lelements that truly speak to a listener and exploit them.

by no means am i saying that my mixes does this.......

i simply saying, from what i've heard, no one else is really doing it.

... ... ...

all i see is engineers, engineering, for other engineers, to geek out about engineering.

i think we just saw the perfect example:  a consensus has started to build that the lyrics aren't really important.  

would any of you guys express that attitude to the songwriter's face?   imo.   it's wrong.

jeff dinces

maxim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5828
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #137 on: September 26, 2006, 02:02:07 AM »

perhaps it should be qualified that lyrics aren't that essential to music

i am, primarily, a lyric writer, and it pains me to admit it, but it's true

that's not to say that lyrics aren't important to other aspects of performance, just not music

Logged

Calvin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #138 on: September 26, 2006, 02:49:09 AM »

cerberus wrote on Mon, 25 September 2006 22:58

i think alistair was egging you guys on with his smiley. perhaps you like his ear candy... but a great meal is not all sweets.

it starts with the song...that is what people can sing themeselves.  that is what is at the core of all great records: great songs. of course. how can we argue about that?

it can be an instrumental...the lyrics can be abstract...speak in tounges...

but there has to be a song.

the music has to be about something; or there is no song.

j.hall wrote on Wed, 20 September 2006 17:22

i'm a bit disheartened with the direction IMP is going.  seems like we're getting more and more about "look at this sweet flanger" and less and less about actually mixing a song.
... ... ...

here is the critique.

no one has done a mix that makes me want to keep listening to the song.  your job as a mixer is to sell the song.  no matter how amazing the song is, you can always kill it.  you have to make people want to listen.  find the lelements that truly speak to a listener and exploit them.

by no means am i saying that my mixes does this.......

i simply saying, from what i've heard, no one else is really doing it.

... ... ...

all i see is engineers, engineering, for other engineers, to geek out about engineering.

i think we just saw the perfect example:  a consensus has started to build that the lyrics aren't really important.  

would any of you guys express that attitude to the songwriter's face?   imo.   it's wrong.

jeff dinces


Ridiculous.  You're making my point for me when you talk about the fact that songs can be instrumental, the lyrics can be abstract, or speaking in tongues.  I can hear what the song means even without hearing every word.  If it's Bob Dylan or Aimee Mann or someone like that, OK, you probably ought to pay attention to the lyrics, or you'll be missing out on the good stuff.  If you're listening to any number of other artists, different story.  Your presumption that because some of us (well, a couple of us, hardly a consensus as you put it) don't hang on every word out of every artist we don't think the song is critically important and that it's all about ear candy is just flat out wrong and more than a bit condescending (your instruction as to the importance of the song is laughable because it's a given - no one's going to argue that, although you use it as a straw-man), as is your suggestion that our views are examples of how the IMPs are heading in the wrong direction.  You also seem to gloss over the parts in our posts where we emphasize the importance of intelligible lyrics and that the songwriter and much of the public very much pay attention to the lyrics and consider them important.

Perhaps if most tunes had lyrics of Maxim's caliber I'd pay more attention.  But we all know that's not the case.  I'll always work to make sure the lyrics are intelligible, though, even if the lyric of a particular tune doesn't do it for me.
Logged

Tom C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 377
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2006, 04:11:26 AM »

maxim wrote on Tue, 26 September 2006 08:02

perhaps it should be qualified that lyrics aren't that essential to music

i am, primarily, a lyric writer, and it pains me to admit it, but it's true

that's not to say that lyrics aren't important to other aspects of performance, just not music





There's a reason why music without lyrics is still called music,
but lyrics without music has lots of different names (speech,
poem, prose, talk, lecture, ...., you name it).

Not that I don't like a good Roger Waters lyric.
Logged
Tom

.signature failure

maxim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5828
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2006, 04:16:07 AM »

i didn't speak or understand english until i was sixteen, and yet, when i was growing up in siberia i loved pretty much all the same music as my friends in oz

i find it to be a very difficult juggling act even when it comes to singing

the more tuneful the voice, the less important/retained the lyrics become

to the point that you can suddenly think "omg, is THAT what this song is about?!"



Logged

scottoliphant

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 721
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2006, 09:59:01 AM »

sigur ros? still have no idea what he is singing about and they write very moving music

cerberus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2651
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2006, 03:07:21 PM »

Calvin wrote on Tue, 26 September 2006 02:49

Ridiculous.  You're making my point for me when you talk about the fact that songs can be instrumental, the lyrics can be abstract, or speaking in tongues.  I can hear what the song means even without hearing every word.


we agree up to here.

Quote:

 If it's Bob Dylan or Aimee Mann or someone like that, OK, you probably ought to pay attention to the lyrics,


now i don't agree!  you called my attitude "condescending", but that is how i felt to read your comments.  i am not a great songwriter, but i would still want the mix engineer to respect my song as much as dylan's. i get the impression that my song would be judged based on an external criteria that is not relevant to the song itself or to me.  i think it is an unfair judgement to say that aimee mann's lyrics are more generally more important to her songs than the lyrics in "weekends and holidays".

Tom C wrote on Tue, 26 September 2006 04:11

There's a reason why music without lyrics is still called music,
but lyrics without music has lots of different names (speech,
poem, prose, talk, lecture, ...., you name it).

Not that I don't like a good Roger Waters lyric.


we are dealing with pop music, indy rock... not ambient.  so that implies that the music has a story or is about something.  even telstar, an instrumental [number one hit] that was made with a lot of processing,  is about something, tells a very clear story to me, and i think the record buying public.  i think the title is important!  i think it lifts the song much farther into the imagination....way beyond what it merely sounds like. i think it was a hit because it was about something people could relate to... i think if it were called something like : "feedback loop experiment in F major with delays"  then it would still have been great music, but it wouldn't  have been a hit.

Quote:

You also seem to gloss over the parts in our posts where we emphasize the importance of intelligible lyrics and that the songwriter and much of the public very much pay attention to the lyrics and consider them important.


i do not gloss it over. i don't think the lyrics need to be intelligable, i think it's not important.  some peal jam songs for example, i can't understand much, but i can feel emotions in it.  not just "let's rock".

like for the famous gary glitter track "rock and roll part 2"... visceral! animal. but that one has specific story and a special mood too... compare it to the chuck berry style of "rock music as party music".. they tell different stories, rock is cultural, it evolves. it speaks to generations. i think  one has to be sensitive to that as well as the "visceral" thing...

and we are not here. we do not talk so far about the cultural meaning of this song, no matter what the lyrics say.. what does it mean?  again this is not background wallpaper music, it is rock.  rock has an attitude.. a mojo. who is feeling it in this song?

Quote:

Perhaps if most tunes had lyrics of Maxim's caliber I'd pay more attention.  But we all know that's not the case.  I'll always work to make sure the lyrics are intelligible, though, even if the lyric of a particular tune doesn't do it for me.


that is very judgemental. so you didn't like the song.  for me as a professional, that never matters, i still do the same professional job... now i will be "condescending" again because i can't believe a professional wouldn't treat this music with  the same consideration that they would  bob dylan's or max's!

j. hall: if you disagree, smack me down please. nobody should take this personally, i think we all need to find out whether i am out of bounds to make these comments: in which case i apologize; and i will learn what is the correct approach; and change my attitude.

scottoliphant wrote on Tue, 26 September 2006 09:59

sigur ros? still have no idea what he is singing about and they write very moving music


that is the point of view i think i agree with.  whoever mixed it probably has an idea what the songs are about, otherwise how could it move anyone? or be effective art?

i think it's the same with "my bloody valentine - loveless"; i think the engineer who mixed  it  was aware of the lyrics and their meaning.  i am almost sure that it didn't come from the mix engineer deciding to disregard the lyrics.

jeff dinces

NelsonL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1233
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2006, 04:04:03 PM »

I think poetry is underrated.

I also think huge guitars are overrated-- except in Metal.

Some lyrics are better than others... some well written lyrics annoy me aesthetically despite their refinement.

Anyway, I'm not sure this debate will ever have a better answer than "it depends."
Logged

Calvin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2006, 05:51:39 PM »

Jeff:

You continue to imply or flat out state that I don't treat every tune with respect.  You are misreading and misstating my positions.  I guarantee that I treated "Weekends and Holidays" with every bit of respect that you did.  I never said ANYTHING negative about that tune, including the lyrics.  I LIKE that tune, and I had fun working on it.  I never said that a tune by Bob Dylan or Aimee Mann deserves more respect.  What I'm saying is that for some songs, the lyrics are more important, and are likely to be elements of the songs that we need to sell.  For other songs, it might be other elements that do the trick.  You yourself state that it's not important that the lyrics be intelligible, that you're more interested in emotions.  THAT'S ALL I'M INTERESTED IN ALSO (although I continue to contend that we need to work to make the lyrics intelligible)!!.  It's like you tell me I'm wrong, but then make my case for me, and even take it a step further (by not caring about intelligibility).  I suggest you go back and really reread my posts.  If you take an honest look, you will not find any disrespecting of any one's work.  You're the only one doing that.
Logged

j.hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3787
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #145 on: September 26, 2006, 09:14:40 PM »

take lyrics and vocals out of modern music and your fan base will drop froma potential however many million to maybe tens of thousands

there is really no point argue this.

modern "contemporary" music without vocals is called muzak and you can find it on any elevator or hotel bathroom you travel in.

otherwise, it's called jazz, classic, or art rock.

the rest of the public doesn't care much about what us music nerds/engineers think.  
Logged

maxim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5828
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #146 on: September 26, 2006, 09:38:39 PM »

there was an earwurm study in germany that showed that 'hook retention' was increased significantly, if the melodic hook was associated with words (in a qualitative manner, involving another part of the brain)

i'd hazard a guess that this is related to prosody

imo, the lyrics don't HAVE to have meaning for a song to be memorable, singable or a hit
Logged

cerberus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2651
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #147 on: September 27, 2006, 01:03:59 AM »

calvin;

i apologise for neglecting to review your submission (and a few others i have missed).

i don't disrespect you because we have differing opinions. i do feel very strongly that if the engineer takes direction from the lyrics, then the song has a better chance to make it's message clear and therefore reach a larger audience ( in terms of with what j. said).

i respect art over commerciality however, so i do respect you and your differing artistic opinion here.

this whole debate seems ironic too in that if dylan were an unknown with the same back catalog, no major label would probably sign him today. i think an indy label would be more likely; yet an indy label is also a business, not an art charity grant foundation. obviously compromises in the art may need to be made so that the art can get exposure at all.  

in this debate, i actually suggested a formulaic approach to mixing based on the meaning of the lyrics.. but i  don't prefer formulaic approaches in general.  

so it's not an easy conversation, but totally important imo, since artistic compromise is unfortunately always implicit in pop, imo.  when we took this job i think we agreed to compromise art to an extent... just so it could be heard.


jeff dinces

j.hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3787
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #148 on: September 28, 2006, 04:00:02 PM »

iCombs....

welcome to the hot seat.

another mix featuring the madolin "warm up".

vocal leads this tune off so i'll start there.  the vocal is dark, and lacks anything truly compelling about it's tone.  it sounds like ou used a tiny bit of compression, no EQ and just blended it in.

when the band comes in (one count later) it brings a lot of good energy to the mix, but now i'm starting to see a monitroing issue.  the whole mix from the beginning to the end is very dark.  your room is either too bright, or your monitors are too bright, or both.  i think you might have a stereo imaging issue as well, but i'll get to that in a bit.

from this point forward the vocals are too quiet.  some people like to blend the vocal back into the music.  that does a few things for me as a listener.  it makes me work a lot harder to pick out the vocal, which isn't something i'm interested in doing, therefore, i'll just shut the mix off and move on.  and, it doesn't help the music create any "lift", which is something that keeps people listening.  your overall blend of the BGV is great, you just need 3dB more of all of them, maybe more.

the high feedback delay on the guitar hook is making your mix bog down in those sections.  it washes out the clarity and murks up the waters.  a delay on that guitar part isn't a bad thing, i'd just trim back the feedback and maybe look for something a little more vibey then just a straight delay.  a tape delay emulator of something with a bit of nastiness would be cool.

your chorus has great lift n contrast to the verse, nicely done there, it's just too dark the vocals are lost.  fix those issues and you'd have something cool.

the low mids in that bass guitar seem a bit out of hand which can be distracting, especially since the mix is this dark.  it might tame down just by getting the top end of the whole mix in shape, or it might need some looking into.

overall, i think your approach needs to see some sonic vibe tossed in.  the concept of mixing isn't something you struggle with that much, but making it really pop off the speakers is where you are stuck.  don't hesitate to do things that might not "make sense".  you need to shed any "rules" for EQ'ing and compressing, and start playing with what exactly j.hall means by "sonic vibe".
Logged

ATOR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 378
Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #149 on: September 28, 2006, 06:04:38 PM »

J. Hall

don't hesitate to do things that might not "make sense". you need to shed any "rules" for EQ'ing and compressing

That's good advice, this week I started doing the exact opposite of what I would normally do and it's one of the best ways I've found so far to get out of my mixing box and get some new perspectives on sound.



I've just spent some more time on this mix and I found it very hard to get all the instruments to sound good in the part where they are played all together and  in the parts where they have more room. When I get the acoustic guitars to sound good in the last 'tutti' chorus they sound thin in the verse and in the break. And if I make them nice and fat the ending gets a mess.

I wonder how you guys approach this, do you make everything small so it all fits and live with small instruments when they are featured on their own.

Also how do you eq a wall of instruments, do you start with the lead instruments and fit in the rest by ranking order or do you pull up all faders and start cutting away. What do you do when the piano and the guitars fight in a freq they both need to have some body?


It's great to be able to pull up different IMP mixes, every time I think: 'This is a good as this instrument will get', I hear a mix where it sounds way better and it's back to work for me Very Happy
Logged
Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 13   Go Up
 

Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.083 seconds with 17 queries.