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Author Topic: IMP7 discussion.  (Read 32814 times)

cerberus

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #120 on: September 22, 2006, 04:18:37 PM »

overthinking is from never hearing the band play except for these tracks.

i think peter (ator) did much more interesting things with the harmonies as individual parts.   what do you think of this different way of hearing the same bgv tracks?

jeff dinces

NelsonL

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #121 on: September 22, 2006, 05:01:12 PM »

scott volthause wrote on Fri, 22 September 2006 13:09

dconstruction wrote on Fri, 22 September 2006 16:05


And they just sound cool.  Which, to me, is justification enough.


Agreed.




Man, I agree too-- but I can't figure out who it reminds me of. Jawbreaker and/or Everclear to some extent vocally, I know there's a better example though. [EDIT: Lucero -- a little anyway, that's who I couldn't remember.]

I'm not thinking of Modest Mouse, although I see the point.

Anyway, I went back through several of the mixes and tried to have at least one useful thing to say. Sorry for not getting to all of them.

You guys all had interesting ideas and I'm pretty much going to leave off the complimentary stuff because I'm in a rush-- as my folks would say, I loved them all equally. If held at gun point here's what I'd want you to revisit:

Scott Oliphant -- Seems like there’s maybe a delay between Snare R and L, or perhaps top and bottom are hard panned or something. For me it sounds a little weird, but headphones exaggerate panning stuff.

Rankus – The Distorted guitars at 02:16 sound bass heavy and a little veiled to me— maybe just a taste thing, also these phones are muddy so you know, grain of salt.

Urick – Your mix sounds overly bright and splashy to me on these rather dark phones. I do understand the impulse to brighten-- this is a little much for my ears.

Maxim – Mix sounds a bit cloudy to me, plus I’m missing those BGVs. There’s a bad fade, or edit or something around 02:36 --that may have come up already, can't remember.

Chris J – Your drum treatment is an automatic skip for me— but hey, I really really don’t like Massive Attack— so maybe it’s just me. I find the overall sonics to be way too peaky as well.

If I were giving out homework assignments I’d ask you to re-mix this song using only panning, level, and EQ. Cuts and boosts of no more than 2 db. No delay, no verb.

I don’t mean to sound like an ass— you hipped me to Audacity and LAME for which I’m very grateful, thanks they're great free tools. Sorry for over focusing on your mix-- it was the hardest for me to grock.

Volthause – Not so into the fade out-- you weren't the only one though. Like the mix -- drums are a little too "roomified" for me. Probably should have skipped yours, I don’t have a lot to offer.

Spoon -- the intro is really distracting with the drums so far back and the acoustic pounding away. I think you've got a cool arrangement idea that didn't quite gel yet. When the kit comes back in it sounds kind of strange, I don’t feel like the snare is glued to the rest of the kit very well—it’s poking out too much.

So that's all I've got, I do agree that just listening to all the different mixes is the best learning tool IMP has to offer. Hopefully nobody is too bummed on my above attempts at insight.

Please direct your hate mail here: info2006@joinarnold.com
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j.hall

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #122 on: September 22, 2006, 05:24:45 PM »

i haven't commented on the tracks yet.  my mistake, as i try to do that early on.

i thought the the tracks a bit dark overall.  the kick drum lacked bottom end, but the drums in general were good.

the vocal performacnes were really good and the tone was nice too.  the lead vocal clips in a few places but it isn't digital clipping, it's analog.

all the things you have mentioned getting re-tracked i would have mentioned as bad syth sounds, but no need to, wait....i just did.....DANG IT.

overall, i think the tracking is quite good, and something you should be proud of.  getting a rounder bottom end in that kick drum would have made the drums slammin....keep an eye on that.

i also thought the electric bass tone had too much bottom and a bit too much mid.  the growl you were after was over shadowed by low end.

this are just the negative comments, i wouldn't take them as being giant issues, judging by your rough mix of this song, your acoustic environment isn't that bad.  low end seems to be the biggest issue, which it is for every room every where to some degree or another.
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rankus

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #123 on: September 22, 2006, 06:11:11 PM »

rattleyour wrote on Fri, 22 September 2006 14:01




Rankus – The Distorted guitars at 02:16 sound bass heavy and a little veiled to me— maybe just a taste thing, also these phones are muddy so you know, grain of salt.




Thanks Liam,

Heheh.. .well I will break my "never defend your work" rule here.... A few of you mentioned the Electric Gtrs in my mix (thank you) so I will comment:

In the interest of time I mixed from the most important to the least important elements, starting with the Vocal.... Truth is I never did get to the Electric Guitars.. I completely ignored them, as my intention was to come back to the mix and fix the "lesser elements", but never got the time... I recall trying to bury the gtrs., but thats about it. LOL

This song reminded me of Tom Waits BTW... (for Dconstruction) GOOD SONG!
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j.hall

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #124 on: September 22, 2006, 06:19:54 PM »

starscream (nick):

solid balance man.....i think you've focused this mix quite well.

the vocals need to come up a touch, but man you got the compression and EQ nailed.  that's a great vibey vocal tone that wouldn't get destroyed on radio...nicely done.

you need to concentrate on controling your drums more.  kick could use a touch more bottom, but feels good where it is (consider the comment a matter of taste)

the low mids in your mix are just about spot on, which is where all the impact and drive is coming from.....nicely done.

those BGV need to come up.  you need to lean heavily on them to drive the song forward.

when the drums drop in the first chorus they are too loud.  especially the snare but only by a few db.

focus on the elements that drive the song.  the elements that stand out as crucial.  separate them from the pack (in your mind) and then pick the elements that best support the others.  you have to build the mix around this.  support, and lead roles.  

you never want the snare drum to be more present then the lead vocal, but you don't want the lead vocal more present then the snare........crazy huh?  it's a tricky balance, but once you get it, you'll see what i mean.

the drum break in the bridge comes in bigger then your main song drums....that's bad news.  electronic drums should never bee louder or "bigger" then a real kit.....i'm sure i could find an exception, but let's not.....

distortion guitars are perfect, you have great ears for guitar tones!

the 2mix compression to me is great.  you want it to be glue, nothing more, nothing less.  and with glue you have to know how much to use and how little to use.  keep working with it, it just takes time.

i would apply more compression to the overheads and bring out something a bit more edgy in the drums.  

overall, i like the feel you went for....i just think the main focus of the song needs to come out further.  i start losing the vocals when more instruments come in....if you need to atumate the vocals don't hesitate.  a static mix is cool and easier, but our jobs are to stop at nothing to make it work.

i think the madolin thing at the beginning is the player screwing around, if it isn't, then it's stupid anyway.  too many people used it, delete it.

once you get your mix "in shape" i think you need to spend time sitting back and trying to listen to it as a piece of art.  see if the choices you made distract from the main focus of the tune.

personally, the delay you used on the BGV is tastey, but a bit distracting.  to me, this song is a dry (mayube a touch of short verb) rocker!  just let it vibe on it's own and enhance that every where you can.
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NelsonL

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #125 on: September 22, 2006, 06:31:57 PM »

rankus wrote on Fri, 22 September 2006 15:11

rattleyour wrote on Fri, 22 September 2006 14:01




Rankus – The Distorted guitars at 02:16 sound bass heavy and a little veiled to me— maybe just a taste thing, also these phones are muddy so you know, grain of salt.




Thanks Liam,

Heheh.. .well I will break my "never defend your work" rule here.... A few of you mentioned the Electric Gtrs in my mix (thank you) so I will comment:

In the interest of time I mixed from the most important to the least important elements, starting with the Vocal.... Truth is I never did get to the Electric Guitars.. I completely ignored them, as my intention was to come back to the mix and fix the "lesser elements", but never got the time... I recall trying to bury the gtrs., but thats about it. LOL

This song reminded me of Tom Waits BTW... (for Dconstruction) GOOD SONG!



I broke the same self imposed rule replying to your critique.

Too funny.

Personally, I figure that if I can't find something to do better next time, then I'm not listening closely enough. Seems like a lot of IMPers feel the same way about their own work, which I think is good.
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rankus

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #126 on: September 22, 2006, 06:47:53 PM »

j.hall wrote on Fri, 22 September 2006 15:19



you never want the snare drum to be more present then the lead vocal, but you don't want the lead vocal more present then the snare........crazy huh?  it's a tricky balance, but once you get it, you'll see what i mean.




A good rule of thumb for sure.   A little trick to check this.  When you turn your monitors down slowly to silence, the last things you want to hear before silence is the snare and vocal... (Snare sitting just a tad below vocal) I use this along with "turn the vocal up until the band gets small", as reference points regarding Vocal level.

Any more mixing tips folks?  This is what we need more of here.. thanks J.
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scottoliphant

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2006, 07:38:15 PM »

Quote:

A good rule of thumb for sure. A little trick to check this. When you turn your monitors down slowly to silence, the last things you want to hear before silence is the snare and vocal... (Snare sitting just a tad below vocal) I use this along with "turn the vocal up until the band gets small", as reference points regarding Vocal level.


pretty cool

rattleyour, the snare thing was actually the left room mic delayed slightly. I've been experimenting lately with delay (offset) as reverb (since I have an aversion for some reason or another to delay, haven't found one i love).

UnderTow

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2006, 08:42:28 PM »

dconstruction wrote on Fri, 22 September 2006 22:05

Wow, Cerebus.  If you'll forgive my opinion, I think you overthink.



Yes Jeff does do alot of thinking. Sometimes a bit too much but I really enjoy reading is posts.  Smile

What Dreams May Come indeed!

Quote:


I'll state my opinion about the background vocals this way: what if there were no lyrics?  Or gibberish?  On a purely sonic basis, what's the point of this song?  



This is exactly how I approach music. I actually don't have a clue what the lyrics of this song are beyond "And here she comes ...". I don't listen to lyrical content. To me vocals are just another instrument.

I don't actually hear lyrical content unless I make a specific effort to listen. To me there is music and poetry. Sometimes they come together but my main focus when mixing is music. If a song _needs_ the lyrics to be any good, the music sucks.  Smile

I love the singing in that Pink Floyd track ... damn what is it called? It is a women singing, no lyrics, just pure emotions. Could be from dark side of the mooon. Not sure anymore. I love it _because_ it has no text getting in the way of the how I interpret the music.

Usually, when I like a song and I make the effort to listen to what is being said, I get thoroughly disapointed as most of it is just so mundane and banal. I much prefer the stories coming from my own imagination.  Very Happy

Of course there are exceptions ...

Alistair
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scottoliphant

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #129 on: September 22, 2006, 09:11:09 PM »

Quote:


I love the singing in that Pink Floyd track ... damn what is it called? It is a women singing, no lyrics, just pure emotions.
shine on you crazy diamond? on preview, maybe not...

maxim

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #130 on: September 22, 2006, 09:35:04 PM »

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starscream2010

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #131 on: September 22, 2006, 10:47:12 PM »

j.hall wrote on Fri, 22 September 2006 17:19

starscream (nick):

solid balance man.....i think you've focused this mix quite well.

the vocals need to come up a touch, but man you got the compression and EQ nailed.  that's a great vibey vocal tone that wouldn't get destroyed on radio...nicely done.

you need to concentrate on controling your drums more.  kick could use a touch more bottom, but feels good where it is (consider the comment a matter of taste)

the low mids in your mix are just about spot on, which is where all the impact and drive is coming from.....nicely done.

those BGV need to come up.  you need to lean heavily on them to drive the song forward.

when the drums drop in the first chorus they are too loud.  especially the snare but only by a few db.

focus on the elements that drive the song.  the elements that stand out as crucial.  separate them from the pack (in your mind) and then pick the elements that best support the others.  you have to build the mix around this.  support, and lead roles.  

you never want the snare drum to be more present then the lead vocal, but you don't want the lead vocal more present then the snare........crazy huh?  it's a tricky balance, but once you get it, you'll see what i mean.

the drum break in the bridge comes in bigger then your main song drums....that's bad news.  electronic drums should never bee louder or "bigger" then a real kit.....i'm sure i could find an exception, but let's not.....

distortion guitars are perfect, you have great ears for guitar tones!

the 2mix compression to me is great.  you want it to be glue, nothing more, nothing less.  and with glue you have to know how much to use and how little to use.  keep working with it, it just takes time.

i would apply more compression to the overheads and bring out something a bit more edgy in the drums.  

overall, i like the feel you went for....i just think the main focus of the song needs to come out further.  i start losing the vocals when more instruments come in....if you need to atumate the vocals don't hesitate.  a static mix is cool and easier, but our jobs are to stop at nothing to make it work.

i think the madolin thing at the beginning is the player screwing around, if it isn't, then it's stupid anyway.  too many people used it, delete it.

once you get your mix "in shape" i think you need to spend time sitting back and trying to listen to it as a piece of art.  see if the choices you made distract from the main focus of the tune.

personally, the delay you used on the BGV is tastey, but a bit distracting.  to me, this song is a dry (mayube a touch of short verb) rocker!  just let it vibe on it's own and enhance that every where you can.




THANKS!  Very Happy

You see... I do pay attention during our little chats Wink
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UnderTow

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #132 on: September 23, 2006, 06:59:16 AM »

maxim wrote on Sat, 23 September 2006 03:35

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gig_in_the_Sky

interesting back story


Thats the one.  Smile

Quote:


In an interview[2], Clare mentioned that she was trying to emulate an instrument.


There you go. Singers should always do this. Lyrics are so over rated.  Very Happy

Alistair
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rankus

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #133 on: September 23, 2006, 01:57:36 PM »

UnderTow wrote on Sat, 23 September 2006 03:59



Lyrics are so over rated.  Very Happy

Alistair


I'm in this camp as well... But there seems to be an equal number of folks out there that live for the lyric... Hip Hop fans come to mind...

Even though we are not listening to the lyric much, we need to remain aware that they need to be very intelegible (unless your working for Mick Jagger LOL)
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Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller

cerberus

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Re: IMP7 discussion.
« Reply #134 on: September 24, 2006, 08:18:54 PM »

so a producer-client plays me a remix he just did: sounds like five minutes of a kick drum sample to me. so i say: "i don't understand this style of music" and he says "i know, that's why i'm not asking you to master it."  (and that was a huge relief!)

jeff dinces
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