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Author Topic: IMP6 discussion  (Read 8557 times)

Patrik T

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2006, 09:02:47 am »

Seems I made it before the thread was locked, so...

I did spend some hour and a half on this in the middle of the night. I am about to move so I wanted to do one last thing before starting to unplug cables and finding the cardboard boxes again. Luckily I found the rar set and gave it a gooo.

The mix. Well. I dunno really. I made it in Sonar 5PE with some included plugs (Sonitus) and then used some Voxengo thingies. If I had more time I would probably run a few things out of the box.

So...

I had two different guitar busses, and this combined with the "raw" guitars (the short one centered in the very start) created a subtle increase of drive to me. Tiny - somewhat honky - chuggy. Like that and I liked that. To separate the guitars from each other and make them a little more glued into each other I found myself to dip a few in the 600-800 range. Some of them got boosts around 250-300.

Bass was comped on it's own but also sent to a parallell with destruction comping.

Lead vox were undertaking Voxengos Voxformer and were going through a cheapo sounding reverb of some kind.

The out of phase OH's...did not really spot that one but when I look back at the mix I see that the OH's were sent to a separate bus (which then went to the drum bus) and the OH's do have a delay on one of the channels. At some point one crash came up L and the other R so it made sense. Maybe the inv phase got a little fix this way. I comped the OH's separatley and it kind of brung up the cymbals into more activity.

The snare was sent to the drum bus but also sent clean to the main bus. The drum bus had some gentle eq and rev on it. This bus was paralell comped but when I revisited the mix I saw that the paralell comp was followed by 156 ms of delay. What the fuck? But when I disegage the delay and engage it again it makes some kind of strange sense regarding how the drums sound, so I guess it's there for a reason (I generally mix with more instinct than brain).

When I soloed the many voices attached to the chorus i LMBO because they were so much drunken sailors. HOOOAHHIOOO. I just couldn't figure what they should do or which one that was leading so I just bunched them into a far rev bus and made them sit away and subtle.

I made the tune decrease after the biggest spot. If I would work more on this I'd use the fatter guitar bus in the very end. I would also automate a whole bunch of crap throughout the piece as well. Especially in the 2:nd half of the tune.

It was just a rapid mix. I strapped a comp over the 2 buss in the end, just taking one dB at some spots.

I'll be back with some positive feedback on the other mixes.


Best Regards
Patrik





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cerberus

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2006, 09:22:43 am »

Patrik T wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 09:02

I made the tune decrease after the biggest spot. If I would work more on this I'd use the fatter guitar bus in the very end. I would also automate a whole bunch of crap throughout the piece as well. Especially in the 2:nd half of the tune.

It was just a rapid mix. I strapped a comp over the 2 buss in the end, just taking one dB at some spots.
i'd like to hear a finished version.. the parts that are good are very good for me...  i'm curious to hear what it would evolve into.  same goes for anyone who ran out of time...probably a lot of us since the sheer number of disjointed parts was extreme as j. mentioned already.

jeff dinces

rankus

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2006, 02:30:34 pm »



On My mix:

I gated the kik drum, eq'd with the "devil horns" curve... (Boost at 73hz, kill 500hz, Boost at aprox 5-7k) Snare: hit it with Tube Sim pluggin for some "hair" and some gated verb, otherwise I left alone... Muted tom tracks... Ran paralel comp on the kik and snare... nothing at all done on OHDS. (missed the phase thing!)

Bass:  UAD 1176 with fairly heavy comp into Amplitube with 880 Crunch preset (tweaked eq in Amplitube) then into Waves Ren Bass for some more harmonics.

Guitars: were not that great so pretty much worked with that, trying not to over process.  Rolled off some bottom boosted 2k. Panned hard the tracks that had similar timbre.

Vox:  Pretty much left alone. no eq.  A little delay.  Lots of delay in big chorus on the BG's. Line up some stuff... but not all. (Needed some "sloppiness") UAD La2a for moderate comp.

On breakdown guitars:  Used "telephone eq" and a rotary speaker sim.





On the song itself:  I found it too long... getting pretty boring by about 3:20 or so.... Could probably  go somewhere else with the arrangement to break things up (drop a chorus add a middle eight?).  Could have used some room mics on the drums... Kick drum was pretty flabby. Guitar sounds were not too great... vocals were pretty good.  Bass was flabby as hell, and appeared to have been low passed to avoid string and pick up noise?. (eek)  Liked the song though.. needs a bit of arranging, thats all.


Comments on mixes:

Note I could have said something nice about each mix, but what good would that do... so I chose to call it the way I hear it...



ATOR:

Good Mix!  (Mastered ?)  (MASTERED!!!)  Dood this is a "mix" project.... decent mix though.



J Hall:  

Comps pumping .... Slightly murky,.... cool "wall of sound" aspect to it though! Good stuff. Watch out for the comps though...



LOU MAN:

Mushy...Possibly too much ambience.... but nice ballance


NIzzle:

Sweet mix, but too much ambience (FX) on Vox detaches the voice from the "band ambient space". Need to make it  sound like they are in the room together.


dikledoux:

A bit murky but decent over all levels etc.  Drums could be tightened up sonicly. Liked the vocal FX (bullhorn?) on the bridge. (or was that pre chorus?)



ADAM MILLER:

Sweet!  Great mix... nice and tight bottom,... well ballanced.... Samples on the drums?  Nice job on the gtrs... !!!!


Tom C:

Need to work on tightening up the drums. Good Mix.



VKorehov:

Diffrent treatment with distortion on the vox.  Comps pumping during heavy parts. Decent Mix. Watch the comps.


Chris J:

Too much high end on snare (ovr hds?)...  Need a little more attention to bottom end.



Shakes The Clown:

Slight fuzzy feel in the mids.  Don't be afraid to bring up the high end a little, and boost the bottom,.... That should help this a bit.


Rankus: (note to self)

Could tighten the drums (kik) up a little more... bottom end a tad mushy.... Sweet treatment on the breakdown dude!  Probably should have used samples on the drums to lose that room sound... Gtrs could have been more up front.


Cerberus:

A tad midsy, but overall  good job.  Too much EQ on the guitars perhaps  (Midsy / sqawky in the heavy parts). I'm Glad Someone else  took advantage the breakdown...


Mark Fasset:

Good mix.  A little murky in the lower mids. (seems to be a trend)


BlueBoy:

Cool intro reverse cymbal.  You beat yourself up in your post , but dude this is good stuff. The gtrs are a teensy bit harsh, but they started out that way so no biggie.  Overall ballance is great! Good job.

Nick T

A little "over processed" sounding.. PSP Vintage Warmer? A little over the top with the comps... cymbals harsh. Good job for getting in at the last minute though.


Maxim:

A little dark, but nice with gravity in the bottom end.  Missing some lead vox though?  You Fixed up those nasty guitars a bit too.  cool.


Patrik T:

Nice ballance. But A little harsh in the upper range.


LOTS OF FUN GUYS!  Looking fwd to the next IMP!
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scott volthause

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2006, 03:34:35 pm »

cerberus wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 02:52

hi scott;

i noticed in your mp3 there is a sort of keyboard-pad-like sound playing under the acoustic section, what exactly is that?

jeff dinces



I can't say that I can tell you. There's definitely no keyboard on there though.

There are several delays and a nice fat plate 'verb on stuff during that section. During the second verse / acoustic section, one of the acoustic guitars is treated with a tremelo. That's pretty much it.
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scott volthause

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2006, 03:37:43 pm »

UnderTow wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:04


Hi Scott,

There seems to be some weird squeaking in the MP3 on all the loud transients. It makes it very painfull to listen to. What did you encode the MP3 with?

Alistair


Exported out of Samplitude to MP3.

I'm not hearing the squeaking at all using iTunes. Anyone else getting that?

What are you playing it back through?
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cerberus

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2006, 04:17:26 pm »

scott volthause wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 15:34

cerberus wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 02:52

i noticed in your mp3 there is a sort of keyboard-pad-like sound playing under the acoustic section, what exactly is that?
I can't say that I can tell you. There's definitely no keyboard on there though.

There are several delays and a nice fat plate 'verb on stuff during that section. During the second verse / acoustic section, one of the acoustic guitars is treated with a tremelo. That's pretty much it.
imo, you have delayed it enough to sound like a separate part. i hear new harmonies which seem to fight with the chords musically more than compliment them, but i like the smoother feeling of it.

scott volthause wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 15:37

UnderTow wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:04

There seems to be some weird squeaking in the MP3 on all the loud transients. It makes it very painfull to listen to.
I'm not hearing the squeaking at all using iTunes. Anyone else getting that?

nope, i don't hear any unexpected artifacts in your mp3.

===

scott, i think it's fair for us to be extra critical of your mix because you had exponetially more time and a clearer view from which to consider every aspect. my opinion is that it is very weak on harmony and counterpoint.  compare to other mixes that used more vocal and guitar parts (e.g. blueboy's revision). and compare to mixes where the effects change more for the chorus, verse, and break.  there is tons of harmony and counterpoint in these recordings, but your mix/arrangement only seems strong on melody.  

reverb is boring for me on "fornever" and it inhibits my ability to feel the music,  some used it well, i think but still it added nothing to my experience of the music because i think the "room" that "fornever" is supposed to be presented in is not relevant to the music; the song is about a personal conversation;  it's not an anthem! so i think the delivery needs to be direct. it doesn't feel like a live performance either, so i think that trying to build an "audience member" listening perspective is not a correct approach.

jeff dinces

scott volthause

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2006, 04:28:37 pm »

cerberus wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 16:17


scott volthause wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 15:37

UnderTow wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 07:04

There seems to be some weird squeaking in the MP3 on all the loud transients. It makes it very painfull to listen to.
I'm not hearing the squeaking at all using iTunes. Anyone else getting that?

nope, i don't hear any unexpected artifacts in your mp3.

jeff dinces


it's probably just my mixing that's making it painful to listen to.  Laughing
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cerberus

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Re: IMP666 discussion
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2006, 04:47:37 pm »

scott volthause wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 16:28

it's probably just my mixing that's making it painful to listen to.  Laughing
not at all. i find it a relatively polite mix.  on the other hand, perhaps j 's kick drum should be registered as a lethal weapon? Twisted Evil   and if i played alistair's mix as loud as i want to, i fear the police would come knocking at my door.  

jeff dinces  

j.hall

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Re: IMP666 discussion
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2006, 05:20:38 pm »

rankus......lots of comments on murky low mids......you got a low mid bump in your acoustics?

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UnderTow

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2006, 05:21:12 pm »

Hi all,

I was too late with my mix but I'll comment on the different versions in case anyone finds any of my comments usefull.

First up, some files don't have proper naming. I think that proper labeling is part of the job. As I downloaded everything in one go and saved to a folder, I can't tell who some of these mixes are from. To a lesser degree the same goes for ID3 tags. They should also be correctly filled in. I have all the tracks loaded in an MP3 player and can't always tell from the track name  who's version it is.

If I don't comment on an aspect of a mix, it probably means that it is fine. Smile I think critical comments are more usefull for learning. All comments based on quick listening so I might miss a few things.


In the order they happen to be in my player:

dikledoux: Sounds good but I don't think the vocal echo really fits this style. (A taste thing of course). Maybe a touch muddy. Towards the end the vocal could be a bit more upfront.

Chris J: Sounds a bit boxy and harsh. The vocal is clear. I like that. The drums sound as though they have a bit too much room on them. I would like a bit more body.

M Fassett: Again I find the drums have a bit too much room on them. Especially the kick. It sounds boomy. The snare could be a bit brighter. You used all (or alot) of all those vocal tracks but you seem to have tightend things up. Great. Smile Overall the mix could be a bit brighter.

Blueboy: I quite like the overal balance. I would have made the kick a touch heavier. The central guitar comes in a bit loud at arround 1:40. Vocal clear. Accoustic guitars loud! Smile A bit too much of a good thing. Smile Definition on the Bass. It is audible through the mix.

Tom C: Guitars a bit dull. Vocal a touch upfront for my personal taste. Kick could have more body and gets caught by the compressor(?) the wrong way at times. Vocals could be a bit brighter/more defined. Again loud accoustic guitars.

Garrett: No first vocal. Smile Nice overall mix. Snare seems to be a bit in its own space seperated from the rest of the drum kit. You also seem to have used alot of those vocal tracks. I think you tightend them if my memory of the timing is correct. Good. Smile I like the idea of what you do with the drums after 3:40 or so but the sound of the effect could be fine tuned a bit I think.

max: Something went wrong here. The levels are all over the place but not in a good way. At times it sounds like parts of the mix are being partially gated (chattering). There is way too much reverb on the vocals. And some cheeky person keeps rolling the drum riser/drummer off stage. He keeps disapearing and the guitarists keep running away to look for him!

Calvin: Nice overal mix. Nice spacey vibe in the part before the chorus. I think the other parts could be a touch dryer and more in your face. Clear vocal. Kick a bit floppy. In that last bit with all the vocals, the leading one could be brought forward a bit.

ATOR: A bit sharp but nice full spectrum mix. (I like that). Did you replace the kick? It is a bit prominant. You made the mix quite loud (like me). I'm not sure this was the intention. Smile Vocal nice and clear. Nice width. I like it.

Cerberus: I like the drums but some of the snare hits (the rolls) seem to have disapeard or gotten much softer compared to the other hits. I don't really like what you did with the center guitar. Mainly because it lacks a bit too much low-end. Again loud accoustic guitars and the bit that comes after that lacks low end so there is not enough impact when that section comes in. Basicly all the sections except the one with the accoustic guitars are lacking low-end IMO. Vocals could be a bit brighter.

Shakes the Clown: Nice mix. Vocals maybe a bit loud for my taste. Snare does get a bit burried at times and could be louder to add more impact. Bass could be slightly tamed in low-mid/upper bass region.

J.Hall: Another big mix but the compressor is chewing up the kick drum making it sound floppy. Vocal could use less verb for my taste. The mix would probably sound great without so much compression.

mix: Ah someone added stuff! Thumbs up! I think the padish sounds work well the way you used them and contribute to the track. Weird (bassy) artefact at 1:44. A bit too much low-end. It gets a bit muddy in spots. Nice vocal when clean but they loose a bit too much high-end/definition in the distorted parts. The guitars are a bit midish and don't sound totaly balanced sonicly to me. The bass has alot of bass but could use more resolution. (Lowering the level but adding a bit of mid-range maybe).

Patrick T : (Comes up in the player as yes girl - yes girl) I think the mix would sound much nicer with much less reverb. The vocals are way too distant alot of the time but even when they are not, they are not in the same space as the guitars. Thats is my main complaint. Bass a bit floppy at times.

Rankus: Wide drums. Again accoustic guitars are a bit louder than the electric ones. The panned vocals lack a center focus. I think I would like this mix alot with a few minor tweaks. Smile

Adam Miller: Nice big wide mix. Vocal could have a touch more bottom. There is a touch too much brightness in the drums for my taste. Basicly the mix is a bit bright for my taste. (upper mid/lower highs)

Nick T: Way too bright for my taste. A pitty because the rest sounds quite good.

UnderTow: I shouldn't have slapped that limiter over the stereo bus. Maybe a bit muddy low-low-mids. Vocal could have a bit more weight.

=====

Oh what the heck, I'll share what I did for anyone interested:
Reference for my version:     http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&uf id=DCE3E7F254BA3E93

Worked in Sonar 5PE. Because I had little time and because I felt it suited the material, I decided to leave it quite raw with not too much reverb except for the harmony vocals. I put them way back in the mix with a big delay to mask all the timing problems. (Also no time for editing).

While going through the tracks I noticed the overheads issue so I turned the phase of one of the channels by 59 degrees. Thats is when it seemed to snap together. Kick and snare expanded and EQed. Overheads compressed with Voxengo Crunchessor and joined with other drum tracks in a bus with another Crunchessor then some harmoniEQ to add some sparkle/harmonics then used dominion (transient designer tool) to bring some snap back. WizooVerb Reverb set to punchy drum ambience and tweaked to taste.

Bass EQed and compressed with Endorphin.

Guitars: Eqed some mid out to leave space and compressed with Crunchsessor. Accoustic guitars EQed but no compression. All guitars have some Mid channel gain reduction with Voxengo MSED to leave space for vocal. WizooVerb Reverb set to Crystal Hall and tweaked to taste.

Vocals: All treated with Voxengo VoxFormer. Delays by Sonitus and PSP Nitro. PerfectSpace reverb with "Bright Blues Club" impulse response.

Stereo bus processing: PSP MasterComp in parallel mode with max 2dB GR on the loudest parts (stereo half linked). Voxengo Warmifier set to 6550 emulation for some fake analogue warmth. The bit I probably shouldn't have done: 2-3 dB of hard clipping, and 3-4dB of hard limiting both curtousy of Voxengo Elephant running in quad oversampling mode.

=====

This was fun! Smile Besides my own (electronic) music, I havn't done any music mix in a couple of years. It was a pleasure to work with this material even thought there were some problems as many have allready mentioned. I'm looking forward to taking part in the next IMP if you guys will have me participate. Smile

Cheers,

Alistair
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UnderTow

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2006, 05:25:23 pm »

scott volthause wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 20:37



Exported out of Samplitude to MP3.

I'm not hearing the squeaking at all using iTunes. Anyone else getting that?

What are you playing it back through?


Strange. I'm playing it back with Winamp. I have never heard anything that sounds quit like this. It sounds a little bit like jiggling coins on every transient/peak. I'll download the file again just in case.

EDIT: Still there after downloading again. Although I have 100% confidence in Winamp, I tested in other players and I get the same thing. It could be the mix. Smile

Alistair

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ATOR

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2006, 05:33:32 pm »

Did some listening and wrote down some comments. When I listen to my own mixes I focus on what's wrong so you guys get the same treatment  Twisted Evil

Adam Miller
great rockmix, very solid

mix 8-26
the vocal ambience shifts form toilet to big hall, this makes me loose the connection with him. the reverb on the ac guitars makes them distant.
drums and guitars sound good

Korehov
I like the snare, Bass is muddy
Vocal gets lost in guitars at some parts
Nice idea about the synthlike fx on the acoustic guitars, too bad the chord changes are delayed, this makes it hazy. Would be nice if you could record the fx and align it with the guitars.

Dikledoux
Good mix, nice balance between instruments

J Hall
drums are very stereo (15ms dly?)
vox have too much reverb for my taste
has some compression artefacts

Tom C
drums are a bit small and thin, vocals too loud in some parts
there's a low end (guitar chug?) resonance popping up now and then

Louman
Lots of reverb makes everything distant
Balance between instruments is off
Mix is top heavy

Chris J
Drum sounds as if it's recorded in a small box
I don’t like the small radio eq on the guitars
When I listen to your bridge I’m glad I took the time to tune the vocals

ShakesTheClown
sounds nice, vocal is a bit too loud (which would be good if the guy could sing)

Rankus
Chorus vocals sound distant
guitars are too shy in the end this creates an anticlimax
clip at 2:38
drunk guys singing in the bridge, I like the underwater part after the bridge

Cerberus
The drums are too soft and the song looses impact because of that. I can hardly hear the bass

Garret G
I guess you didn’t like the chorus vocals much
Good balance, thick sound
I Like the muting/filtering of the drums after the bridge but it would be nice if they kicked in after 8 bars for the Big Ending

M Fassett
Low end lacks tightness, chorus vocals sound distant

Blueboy
Nice balance, vocal stays good on top, bit top heavy, lowend lacks tightness

Nick T
Good balance, too bad you limited your mix so hard. Vocal a bit too loud.
Some midlow resonance in the vocal (reverb)

Max
Good idea to cut the part after the bridge, it is a bit of a dead in the water part.
I don’t like the delays on the drums and the reverb on the acoustics.
Sounds like some parts have shifted in time, that and the delays throw all groove out of the window
Vocals too loud, drums too soft


It's great to hear so many views on a mix. Too bad some of you guys had to rush it, I'd like to hear what you could do if you took your time. When I have some time I'm gonna try out some of the ideas and sounds I heard. Thanks for participating everybody.
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j.hall

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2006, 05:34:09 pm »

UnderTow wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 16:21



J.Hall: Another big mix but the compressor is chewing up the kick drum. It sounds floppy. Vocal could use less verb for my taste. The mix would probably sound great without so much compression.



what is "floppy"?  the kick drum, or the whole mix?

how come people keep submitting mixes?  next mix submission i see will get deleted.....maybe in school you can turn homework in late and get away with it, in the real world you just get fired and not paid!
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NelsonL

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2006, 05:47:20 pm »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 14:34

UnderTow wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 16:21



J.Hall: Another big mix but the compressor is chewing up the kick drum. It sounds floppy. Vocal could use less verb for my taste. The mix would probably sound great without so much compression.



what is "floppy"?  the kick drum, or the whole mix?

how come people keep submitting mixes?  next mix submission i see will get deleted.....maybe in school you can turn homework in late and get away with it, in the real world you just get fired and not paid!


I'm looking for one of those "fired but still get paid" type gigs. Let me know if you've got any ideas.

Also, I think the kick sounds more SCSI than floppy, but that's just me.

I wish I'd been around to participate though, I've always been impressed with the stuff Scott has posted-- even before he had a first name.

See you in detention...
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scott volthause

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2006, 06:04:12 pm »

cerberus wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 16:17


===

scott, i think it's fair for us to be extra critical of your mix because you had exponetially more time and a clearer view from which to consider every aspect. my opinion is that it is very weak on harmony and counterpoint.  compare to other mixes that used more vocal and guitar parts (e.g. blueboy's revision). and compare to mixes where the effects change more for the chorus, verse, and break.  there is tons of harmony and counterpoint in these recordings, but your mix/arrangement only seems strong on melody.  



Oh absoutely. Critique away, as I can definitely take quite a bit of abuse. I've had way more time fiddling with this than probably everyone here put together. That mix was done over a year ago though, and I can tell where I've changed and what I've learned the past year.

I appreciate your honesty though. We're all (supposedly) grown ups, and seeing that this is an open forum, and open discussion on audio and the mixing thereof, everything should be on the table.
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