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Author Topic: IMP6 discussion  (Read 8551 times)

j.hall

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IMP6 discussion
« on: August 29, 2006, 11:37:46 am »

have at it......
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LSilva

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2006, 01:25:29 pm »

I seem to favor the versions that didn't get too fancy.

Some of the standouts for me are Ator's, Adam Miller's and Rankus' (for the bass track treatment) versions.

I thought all the tracks sounded great and really didn't need much. I didn't even eq much of anything aside from high-passing the guitars and vocals.

The biggest problem I had was the vocals.  I got caught up in trying to figure out where everything was coming from and ended up missing some details (missed fades, uneven volumes).

I wish I had gotten an earlier start on this to give myself some more time.

Again though, this was a great time and an incredible learning experience.
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Lou Silva

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2006, 02:27:46 pm »

I wanted to make a no frills goodsounding mix.

These are some things I did apart from the obvious:
- duplicated the snaretrack with gate so the louder hits got accented more.
- used the tom tracks as pseudo roomtracks
- the drums were sent to a normal and a crushbus with heavy compression.
- bas is duplicated and re-amped through a POD
- different EQ on every guitartrack so they wouldn’t become a single wash of guitars.

The vocal was the hardest to get right and I’m still not satisfied with it. I probably spend half the time on the vocals.
I tuned the lead with Melodyne and automated the level so it would be just on top of the mix. Aligned some of the backing vox with the lead.

The only verb used was a short plate for the snare and lead vocal and I also used a delay on the lead.

I used as little compression as I could.


After listening to al the other mixes I wish I wouldn’t have scooped out the guitars that much, a little more 1k would give the mix more body and presence. Maybe I should have used more compression on the leadvocal to fatten it up a little.


I'll post my notes on the others mixes this week.
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Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering

dikledoux

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2006, 02:54:54 pm »

What caught me by surprise was the tracking - all layed out with parts and places clearly defined.  Kinda like blueprints for where they wanted the song to go - at least that's what I got.

But it's interesting how much the overall tonality of the song differs on some of these mixes.  A LOT of them stand side-by-side as very similar approaches... But some just stick out as having been wrenched into a completely different sonic direction - scoopy on one, super bass drum heavy on another, etc. and not necessarily good.  Also heard a couple mixes that had tons of drum processing, even though the drum parts were very consistently played.  My personal take was that the drummer hit the drums right, why screw with it too much?  Half the time I'm trying to make drums sound like these already did.

Another thing... Some of the files didn't line up by just a bit even though I brought them all into a project at 0:00:000.  This isn't the first time I've seen this - is lining up tracks a standard issue when getting raw track files, or is it just operator error on my part?  I heard on a couple of the mixes that people didn't notice the vocals not lining up - sounded like a slap echo, but I figured it was just a timing problem and slid (slud?) parts accordingly.  Anyone that didn't notice the oheads were phase flipped?  Was that part of the exercise or just an interesting coincidence?

The only limb I went out on was the editing.  Back to the head of the tune rather than drag out the stuff after the bridge.  If the vocal would've driven that part, or if there was a bitchin' guitar part there, I'da kept it.  But the whole part just sounded like a leftover on the song, so snip, snip, snip.

I really enjoyed doing this one, makes me want to get my act more together from a tracking standpoint.

dik
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chrisj

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2006, 03:38:43 pm »

Ator- Fat! The kick is really strong and upfront, the sound is really full- neat snare treatment on acoustic bits- pok!

Tom C- Liking the groove factor, lots of midrange, gentle on the woofers. Acoustic parts are way bigger than the distorted ones!

Adam Miller- Really big! I'm liking the snarl on the stereo guitars and the big drum sound. Just... BIG. Whoa. (in Keanu Reeves voice)

V Korehov- Double whoa. Are those reverb effects? On the third acoustic guitar, or on the semi-dirty electric? This is a TRIP, incredibly daring. They weren't heavy enuf for ya, huh? Very Happy

LouMan- Lots of air, lots and lots of air! The dynamics of this one have more room to move than usual. Actually everything has lots of room to move because the SPACE everything is in is way bigger than usual. I like the size of the verse vocals relative to the band.

Nizzle- Yikes! Very Happy Damn, you're loud! Like a band in the room. I'm enjoying that incredibly aggressive kick, and the bar-band-verb vocal. This is GREAT fun, I'm feeling the energy.

Dik- BIGTIME groove factor, and a huge beefy low end. I love how the loud bits hang together with all the elements roaring away in balance. Also, the way the track can go off like a cannon on guitars and kick and bass. Definitely awesome, I'm a fan Very Happy

J. Hall- Wow, compressed AND pointed. Intense intense intense. Got a super-aggressive groove factor. Damn, are your walls-o-sound good, too. I like the use of the bass for lows, it seems to sound extra good. Compression compression compression. Sweet. You da man Very Happy

Shakes the Clown- Cool- solid! We have groove again, and loads of bass, and things are combining in a way that really appeals to me. I like, I really like. I particularly like the drama of the vocal against the well-crafted backdrop of the music Smile

Rankus- Big- the snare verb jumps out immediately, and then the warble effect on the lead vocal- things are combining in a good way here too. Wild delay trickery at the end, like a headbanger canon Very Happy

Cerberus- distorted! Wink seriously, neat grind on the guitars, reamping it instead of say doing the same effect with EQ is very interesting. Sometimes it works REAL well on the chuggy guitars. Whatcha doing on the lead vocal in the acoustic section? Very tricky vocal mixing on the bee gees section at the end Smile

M Fassett- I'm liking the crunch on the guitars, they're really big and solid, and this makes the dynamic contrasts come off really well. Also, kewl verb on the snare, and good steady groove factor Smile

Blueboy- I like the guitar crunch here too, and it's neat how the bass goes 'bwommm!', the bass has a more voicelike tone here than on any other mix. It almost sounds like a fretless. It's interesting how the intro guitar is incredibly forward and then other things are in the middle or way back- this mix has lots of front-to-back placement Smile

Nick T- Whoa! BIG. Ye GODS. Makes me feel like a tiny little ant person Very Happy Damn good groove factor too, and holy mother of fuck, that frequency range, super lows and such highs. I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy! Very Happy and what did you mix this on?? (actually when I turn mine up about 7 db I don't feel quite so much like  a tiny little ant person. Still... *makes heavy metal gestures while headbanging*

Garret- Suddenly I'm in a warehouse! Whoa- no intro vocal. Verse vocal sounds good tho. I like the size of the kick combining with bass, that's on a very big scale. Coolbeans Smile

Calvin- No buss L2 limiter here! *turns it WAY UP*  hey, neat vocal reverb! Is that a flanger on the vocal reverb? It has a nice subtlety. I am also liking the bass tone as it combines with kick and snare Smile good low end kick here. Turn this one UP people, these are not necessarily mastered. (Mine isn't either)

Max- Again with the TURN IT UP, otherwise you're not hearing what's there. Hey, heavy guitar! I like the deep crunching on that guitar. We've got different guitars doing different things, like a trebly scratchy-chug guitar and that big chug guitar I was enjoying. Also the vocals are floating several miles about the band like they're flying in space Smile

Patrik T- Aha, we're on a big stage. I like the way I'm hearing the scale of things get bigger as other instruments enter- it really feels like the arrangement is getting bigger when new stuff comes in. Also some of the stuff is way deep in the reverb, making even more depth.

Very Happy

scott volthause

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2006, 03:47:03 pm »

Okay, I'll come clean. That was my bands song, that we tracked a little less than 2 years ago.

Some of you noticed the odd vocal stuff. That was sort of an accident that happened while packing everything up. After the .rar was posted, I downloaded it and set it up like a faux mix, and realized what went wrong. I thought about sending up a red flag, but then decided it might be a good learning experience. Sometimes you might get stuff to mix that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Some of you made the best of it and others ignored it.

If anyone has any specific questions of me, fire away. And if anyone wants to hear the original mix, I can throw that up too.

I think everyone did cool things though.

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LSilva

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2006, 03:55:41 pm »

dikledoux wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 14:54



Another thing... Some of the files didn't line up by just a bit even though I brought them all into a project at 0:00:000.  This isn't the first time I've seen this - is lining up tracks a standard issue when getting raw track files, or is it just operator error on my part?  I heard on a couple of the mixes that people didn't notice the vocals not lining up - sounded like a slap echo, but I figured it was just a timing problem and slid (slud?) parts accordingly.



Yeah, I noticed that too.  My mix was one that had the "vocal slap back" problem. It was one of the many details that I meant to go back and fix but I ran out of time (my own fault).
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Lou Silva

garret

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2006, 04:28:53 pm »

dikledoux wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 14:54



Another thing... Some of the files didn't line up by just a bit even though I brought them all into a project at 0:00:000.



I think I only slid one vocal part later in time... it was so far off, it was either going to get muted or fixed.

The timing on the bass track was bothering me too, but I didn't have the time/energy/skills to fix it...

Regarding my track... No vocals on the intro indeed.  I'm not being paid for this mix, so I felt free to wield an honest and  heavy knife.  To my ears and taste, the "why don't you come quietly" vocal was/is god awful (in lyrics, melody, and style)... and guitar riffs in that section are so fantastic, I wanted them to be the feature hook, not that vocal.  So I cut the vox out of there entirely. Smile  Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead.  I meant eventually to ride up one of the guitars as a lead, but ran out of time...

Some other comments... after the wicked 9 layer vocals (the bridge I think), the rest of the tune just seemed like a let down.   And given that I killed off the vocal, there was even less reason for a minute more of rock music.  So I messed around with some mangling effects and turned the mix upside down into a riff/spacey outtro... the guitars remain, and the snare alone drives a resonance plug + delay.

Did the original bass bother anyone else?  something really flabby about it to my ears, I ended up goosing the mids significantly, and even putting a little bit of spring reverb on it (a la pixies).

I have to admit I originally did not like the tune... not my cuppa tea, and the vocal part I cut out was makign me cringe.  But now with my heavy handed editing, I like it. Smile

-G
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j.hall

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2006, 05:49:02 pm »

chrisj wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 14:38


J. Hall- Wow, compressed AND pointed. Intense intense intense. Got a super-aggressive groove factor. Damn, are your walls-o-sound good, too. I like the use of the bass for lows, it seems to sound extra good. Compression compression compression. Sweet. You da man Very Happy



it's over compressed honestly.

i got a bit adventerous with the SSL, but with my work load and gear breaking i hardly had time to mix it at all.  that's not a disclaimer, i knew it was over compressed and i went with it anyway.......

my overall comment about the tracks is that it's very difficult to mix songs that have all the guitars and vocals broken out like that.

i've never seen it done to this extent, but this style of orginazation is becoming the norm and it's really annoying.

on tape machines you just punched in and things were all nice and neat and made sense by the time they got to me.

level matching and trying to understand exactly what goes where is a real pain in the balls when every part of the song is on a seperate track.  sc ott had to label the tracks the best he could for a large audience so i'll cut him slack there.

i used samples to beef up the drum sounds.  for a hard rock track the printed drums were just to sloppy sonically.  they were played well, but they just didn't match the precision in the guitars.
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blueboy

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2006, 05:54:01 pm »

scott volthause wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 12:47

Okay, I'll come clean. That was my bands song, that we tracked a little less than 2 years ago.

If anyone has any specific questions of me, fire away. And if anyone wants to hear the original mix, I can throw that up too.

I think everyone did cool things though.




I'd love to hear the original mix Scott.

Also, details on how you tracked would be interesting.

Thanks for supplying the tracks to practice on!

JL
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dikledoux

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2006, 05:55:39 pm »

scott volthause wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 15:47

...Sometimes you might get stuff to mix that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Don't get me started!   Laughing

Actually, I was thinking of playing your tracks for some people on another project to show them what stuff SHOULD sound like as opposed to what they have.  I thought the guitar sounds were perfect for the song - nice and gnarly, but a good smooth distortion.  I subbed all the elec guits together and then all I did was boost a touch around 380 on the subgroup so that when they were up front they were easier to listen to - and then I slapped some comp across the sub to tweak some attack back into the mellowed eq.  I didn't care that they all sounded like the same guitar.  It was cool that I could just stack and there'd be more, then more the MORE... <g>.  Seems like you'd stack different guitar sounds to assemble a sound that no one part gets, but any one of these guitar parts were pretty much fine just like they were.

garretg mentioned not liking the vocal so he muted it... I gotta admit that the first part didn't turn me on when I heard it dry, but the "why don't you come quietly..." bit made me think of cops on a bullhorn talking to a bad guy, so that's where I got the idea for the treatment and the vocal sounded fine with the extra crap going on.  I don't own a plugin to tune stuff with, so I tend to listen for attitude in a vocal performance as much as other qualities... sometimes that's all that needs to be there.

my .02

dik
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scott volthause

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2006, 05:57:15 pm »

Original Mix

Fornever

Tracking Details
This track was actually born from a demo. It's funny how it's one of our favorite live tracks, but we've since tried to record it with more of a eye on making it sound better, and it just didn't turn out good. All of the parts on here were born of spur of the moment, and to try to go back and say "oh yeah, add that part in with the vox that totally kicked ass" and it comes out boring. So this is actually going to make it on to our forthcoming EP, although probably with a few sonic tweeks, such as sample replacing the drums using the "better" drum sounds I captured when we actually starting recording the EP with decent stuff.

Anyhow. If memory serves me correctly, this would be the recording chains:

drums
KD - Beta 52 - Meek VC1Q w/opto compressor engaged
SD - 57 - Presonus blue tube
Tom 1&2 - 57 - Presonus blue tube
Overhead - Oktava MK319 - ART Dual tube

guitars
JCM800 - 1960A cab - 57 - Meek VC1Q

bass
Fender Bassman100 - 4x10 SWR - Beta52 - ?

vocals
Oktava Mk319 - Meek
and
Rode NT1 - Meek

DAW
PARIS

j.hall wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 17:49

sc ott had to label the tracks the best he could for a large audience so i'll cut him slack there.



I don't think I actually put much effort into them, and intentionally wanted to make it a bit "challenging." Sorry if that was a bit of an assholish maneuver, I just thought part of the IMP series might be about overcoming obstacles in mixing, particularly with delivery methods.
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chrisj

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2006, 06:03:18 pm »

I slid stuff around too Smile

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dikledoux

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2006, 06:04:01 pm »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 17:49

i used samples to beef up the drum sounds.  for a hard rock track the printed drums were just to sloppy sonically.  they were played well, but they just didn't match the precision in the guitars.


WHOAH!  See, I didn't get that at all. I thought the drums were nice and tight.  But to be fair, on the mixes that are more heavily compressed, the groove tends to get chunky - and I hear what you're talking about on those mixes.  I think the drums blend (for lack of a better term) with the bass differently on my mix for instance, and so what some perceive as lack of precision didn't bug me - - at all.  Not even on my radar screen.

But I lean to the funky, trashier side of things naturally.  I'm just trashy like that.  I guess it's why I'm such an STP fan.

dik
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NickT

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Re: IMP6 discussion
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2006, 06:24:45 pm »

Quote:

Nick T- Whoa! BIG. Ye GODS. Makes me feel like a tiny little ant person  Damn good groove factor too, and holy mother of f*#@, that frequency range, super lows and such highs. I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!  and what did you mix this on?? (actually when I turn mine up about 7 db I don't feel quite so much like a tiny little ant person. Still... *makes heavy metal gestures while headbanging*



Thanks Chris. LOL I almost spit my Pepsi all over the screen when I read that!

I mixed it in the box with Sonar 5PE.

I wanted to spend more time on the vox...but just didn't see this IMP in time.

The treatment was pretty even across the mixes, only difference was how hard people hit it.

My reference for the mix was Altered Bridge, Nickelback and Disturbed.

I was going to hit the drum sub as a stem and decided not to. Although a little more kick would have been nice. I did clone the kick track and eq and comp the hell out of one and mix it back in with the original for some attack.

Thanks for the practice!

NickT
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