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Author Topic: Observation about converters after I switched  (Read 7552 times)

Glenn Bucci

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Observation about converters after I switched
« on: August 24, 2006, 03:02:00 PM »

Ok I don't want to get flamed so I will leave out the name of the converters in this thread. However I can tell you that neither one is a Lavry.

I have a converter (Brand Z)..in the same quality ball park as Benchmark, Apogee, Mytek, and Lynx level. I was very happy with it, but I needed more channels. Therefore, I went to Brand X that gave me more A/D, & D/A. What I notice was Brand Z had more top end sparkle, while Brand X has more of an even sound with low’s mid’s and high’s. Many have said, oh how much better Brand Z was because it captures the top end better, and it sort of made sense to me for a while. But when I started thinking about it, if you have a violin playing in front of you, do you hear this high end sparkle? For me the answer is no. It is even sounding across the board. It almost seems that some converters give you a different representation of what you would naturally hear that was sung or played in front of you. Personally I don’t like this. I like a true representation of what is in front of you. Yeah the mic has a proximity effect you can work with, and the pre also has color. So I like to stop there and hear what I hear in my headphones. I never heard Prisms either, but many have said, that it unveils something in the top end. But is it a more accurate representation of what you hear in your headphones (If you stayed in analog) or is it exaggerating something? What are your thoughts on this?
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compasspnt

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2006, 11:36:32 PM »


High end is EXTREMELY overrated.

Listen to Dark Side Of The Moon again.
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Deep White

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2006, 09:26:15 AM »

IMHO, we pay more attention to the top end because we are in the digital age.

While comparing recordings nowadays and decades ago, I've noticed that, in the old days, things retain their clarity without having to be too bright.  Yet in the digital age, if you want clarity, you need to make things brighter.  Much brighter if you got lesser digital equipments that make your sound fuzzy, sterile or harsh.

Yet again, I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing.  I'm not a native English speaker, thus often misled by wordings I'm not familiar with.
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Arys Chien
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Glenn Bucci

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2006, 12:31:31 PM »

Deep White wrote on Sat, 26 August 2006 09:26

IMHO, we pay more attention to the top end because we are in the digital age.

While comparing recordings nowadays and decades ago, I've noticed that, in the old days, things retain their clarity without having to be too bright.  Yet in the digital age, if you want clarity, you need to make things brighter.  Much brighter if you got lesser digital equipments that make your sound fuzzy, sterile or harsh.

Yet again, I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing.  I'm not a native English speaker, thus often misled by wordings I'm not familiar with.


You got it!
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maxdimario

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2006, 12:40:44 PM »

sparkly high end is usually hyped high end..
but clarity and stability of image in the 3-6K freq's is essential for music reproduction..

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maarvold

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2006, 01:26:12 PM »

For me, a better benchmark is:

With a superb and uncolored signal chain, does this violin sound more lifelike with Converter A or Converter B?
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Michael Aarvold
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bigaudioblowhard

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2006, 03:17:44 PM »

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 21:36


High end is EXTREMELY overrated.

Listen to Dark Side Of The Moon again.



Dark Side Of The Moon is EXTREMELY overated, listen to The Stooges first album again (vinyl), great songs, great sonics and tons of space.

bab

Andy Peters

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2006, 04:24:35 PM »

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 12:17

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 21:36


High end is EXTREMELY overrated.

Listen to Dark Side Of The Moon again.



Dark Side Of The Moon is EXTREMELY overated, listen to The Stooges first album again (vinyl), great songs, great sonics and tons of space.


With this I agree!

-a  
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"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."

compasspnt

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2006, 04:58:25 PM »

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 15:17

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 21:36


High end is EXTREMELY overrated.

Listen to Dark Side Of The Moon again.



Dark Side Of The Moon is EXTREMELY overated...


Hey,

I was not citing DSOM as onf of the greatest sounding recordings of all time.  Those are mine. (Insert Smiley here)

What I meant was that the album is so extremely well known and revered, yet it is not at all overly bright by "today's standards."

Regards.
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intervalkid

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2006, 01:25:02 AM »

I personally do think that Dark Side of the Moon is one of the best recordings of all time, on CD, as I haven't heard it on vinyl or cassette.
When you said those are yours, are you saying that you recorded it?  
The Stooges first album does sound great too though.
Vinyle sounds so good when you have a good amp and speakers.
I remember listening to "Her Satanic Majesties...." (can't seem to remember the last part of the title) by the Rolling stones about 10 years ago on my friends dads system on vinyl and was just blown away by how everything sounded so alive.  Like you could see it and touch it.  So many colors and an effect of being wraped up in the music.  It left a definite impression.
Which begs the analogue vs. digital recording and medium question once again!
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compasspnt

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2006, 04:03:08 PM »

intervalkid wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 01:25


I personally do think that Dark Side of the Moon is one of the best recordings of all time, on CD, as I haven't heard it on vinyl or cassette.
When you said those are yours, are you saying that you recorded it?  



Hi Adrian,

No, I didn't work on DSOM.

I was just facetiously stating that, whilst I did not think that it was (necessarily) one of the best recordings of all time, ALL of the recordings which ARE on the list of "best," other than that one, were ones I recorded.

It was just a joke.
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Deep White

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2006, 12:27:43 AM »

I don't think one has to work on one album to make comment about it.

But I do believe that DSOM is one of the best sounding records ever.

It's really hard to "sound good" without being "hyped" at all.
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Arys Chien
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2006, 04:47:01 AM »

intervalkid wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 06:25


Vinyle sounds so good when you have a good amp and speakers.
I remember listening to "Her Satanic Majesties...." (can't seem to remember the last part of the title) by the Rolling stones about 10 years ago on my friends dads system on vinyl and was just blown away by how everything sounded so alive.  Like you could see it and touch it.  So many colors and an effect of being wraped up in the music.  It left a definite impression.
Which begs the analogue vs. digital recording and medium question once again!



No it doesn't, it begs the "what's going on in vinyl that I like?" question.

Vinyl has its own set of limitations and distortions, which are different to those of tape, for example the fact that the cutter is a wedge and the playback needle round leads to second harmonic distortion. On the other hand it has no bias signal to interact with the signal, but it does have RIAA equalization, and so on.

To lump both these systems together into some magical group marked "Analogue" just seems wrong, they are probably as different to each other as they are to PCM.

Interestingly I remember a thread on here somewhere where it was said that a mastering engineer experimented by basically abusing the signal's bass end to emulate the limitations of a vinyl cutter, and people who listened to the result thought it sounded better.

As for top end and clarity, it is interesting to note that we get most of our positional information between around 8k and 12k, those are the frequencies where we can discern full 3d, above and below things get a lot vaguer. Maybe having some roll off if the top end allows the brain to concentrate more on the frequencies that really matter?  
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intervalkid

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2006, 02:17:23 AM »

Positional frequencies 8k to 12k?  Do you mean that these frequencies are the ones that give the sense of where the sound is at in the stereo or surround spectrum?  That is very interesting.  I have been trying to get more distinct placement out of the instruments in my recordings so this is of great concern.  I also have noticed that alot of digital recordings lack a distinct placement compared to recordings that were done first on analogue and then tranferred to CD.  That would explain alot!  I mean if you listen to "Up All Night" by John Scofield, (which is a fantasic CD) everything seems like it's everywhere.  There is little definition.  It is a great record but a bad recording in my opinion.  Then listen to say "When the Music's Over" by the Doors, (one of my favorites as far as recording qaulity) eveything is so clear and defined it is colorful and alive.  Man that's one of the best!
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: Observation about converters after I switched
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2006, 05:03:52 AM »

intervalkid wrote on Sun, 03 September 2006 07:17

Positional frequencies 8k to 12k?  Do you mean that these frequencies are the ones that give the sense of where the sound is at in the stereo or surround spectrum?  That is very interesting.  I have been trying to get more distinct placement out of the instruments in my recordings so this is of great concern.  I also have noticed that alot of digital recordings lack a distinct placement compared to recordings that were done first on analogue and then tranferred to CD.  That would explain alot!  I mean if you listen to "Up All Night" by John Scofield, (which is a fantasic CD) everything seems like it's everywhere.  There is little definition.  It is a great record but a bad recording in my opinion.  Then listen to say "When the Music's Over" by the Doors, (one of my favorites as far as recording qaulity) eveything is so clear and defined it is colorful and alive.  Man that's one of the best!


Well sound positioning is complex stuff, and still being researched (especially the effect of echos). But the basics aren't too complicated and I used to work for one of the pioneers in the field. If we take the simple case of a point source of sound it seems that very low frequencies we can't really position at all (hence you can get away with a single sub woofer), then we get into a band where the main factor in our perception is the distance between our ears, giving us horizontal perception, then between 8 and 12k ish we get full 3d positioning, including height, after that it all gets vaguer again (though I can't remember why, maybe it was just unimportant in our evolution).

That's not to say that nothing over 12k is important, or that it doesn't affect our perception of position, but it's like a garnish on the actual dish, if you got the cooking right then the garnish can give it that little lift from good to great, but i you didn't then it doesn't matter how hard you try with the garnish, it's never going to be good.
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