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Author Topic: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??  (Read 8148 times)

Daniel_Dettwiler

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Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« on: August 23, 2006, 11:22:03 am »

Hi there

I am thinking about getting an Pacific Microsonics Model 1. Has anyone compared this unit to Lavrie Gold, EMM-Labs or other Units? Also how does it compared to the Model 2? Is it the same exept for the lower sampling rate? I am mainly interessted in the DA part of the unit, as I alreadey have EMM AD's.

Thanks for any input

Daniel
www.ideeundklang.com
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Daniel Dettwiler
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mastermind

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2006, 09:57:29 pm »


I used to have a PM model One.. now I have the Lavry Blues...... don't miss the PM box one bit !!!!

t

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trevor sadler
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bblackwood

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2006, 10:00:40 pm »

IIRC, the PM stuff was discontinued because the parts needed to build them were no longer available - do you really want to invest in something that cannot be supported at any cost?

Sound-wise, I've never heard anything but great things regarding PM's converters...
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Brad Blackwood
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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2006, 12:31:05 am »

Not totally true,

Euphonix handles all of the repairs and they have gads of parts (according to Dave Peck who was originally at Pacific Microsonics), it's just pricey to repair them.  

In my opinion the Model 1 is still a great box (we have two) and is way more than just a converter.  I did a dac shootout here a few years back between the PM-Model I, Lavrey Gold (at that time DB Tech), Lavry Blue, Prism Dream DA-8, and Apogee 8000.  The two faves were the PM and the Lavry Gold.  

I have a friend who designs very high-end ($$$) audiophile analog gear and analog circuits for converters.  He occassionally comes over to listen to various devices and the PM has always hung in there as an equal or bested some pretty great stuff.

I like the PM for it's multitude of dithers, it's upsampling and downsampling capabilities, the ability to adjust output gain either analog or digitally, and it's ridiculously quiet s/n and thd levels.  The cascade (digital insert) mode is very convenient.

I've seen model I's on ebay for $3500 - $4500 and consider this a good buy if you have the ability to swallow an occassional $800 repair bill.  

My 2 cents.

Regards,

Brent Lambert
The Kitchen Mastering
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brent lambert
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2006, 12:53:02 am »

The PM converters were taken out of production so that they could support the ones in the field.

This is one responsible manufacturer unlike too many I could name...

mastermind

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2006, 03:39:47 am »

The PM Model 1 converters are nice.... but imo the Lavry Blues hold their own against it, are far more reliable, and do 96k.....

The Lavry Golds beat up the PM I and it runs home crying..... my humble opinion....

t

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trevor sadler
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Daniel_Dettwiler

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2006, 06:20:01 am »

Thanks for the replies guys.

2 Answears saying that they liked the Lavrie Blue better than the PM, that's informative for me, because I have tested the Blue against EMM and liked EMM better. The Problem, at least in Switzerland ist, that you never get all of the highend Converters for a shoot-out.

As for the service, I also have heard that Euphonix can do service for the PM for at least the next years.

Thx
Daniel

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Daniel Dettwiler
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bblackwood

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2006, 07:25:26 am »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Wed, 23 August 2006 23:53

The PM converters were taken out of production so that they could support the ones in the field.

This is one responsible manufacturer unlike too many I could name...

Ahh, good to know. And yes, that reflects very well on Euphonix!
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2006, 07:26:46 am »

bl wrote on Wed, 23 August 2006 23:31

In my opinion the Model 1 is still a great box (we have two) and is way more than just a converter.  I did a dac shootout here a few years back between the PM-Model I, Lavrey Gold (at that time DB Tech), Lavry Blue, Prism Dream DA-8, and Apogee 8000.  The two faves were the PM and the Lavry Gold.  

I have a friend who designs very high-end ($$$) audiophile analog gear and analog circuits for converters.  He occassionally comes over to listen to various devices and the PM has always hung in there as an equal or bested some pretty great stuff.

I like the PM for it's multitude of dithers, it's upsampling and downsampling capabilities, the ability to adjust output gain either analog or digitally, and it's ridiculously quiet s/n and thd levels.  The cascade (digital insert) mode is very convenient.

I've seen model I's on ebay for $3500 - $4500 and consider this a good buy if you have the ability to swallow an occassional $800 repair bill.

Thanks, Brent. Any experience with the Model II?
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

Bob Olhsson

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2006, 10:58:55 am »

Daniel_Dettwiler wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 05:20

2 Answears saying that they liked the Lavrie Blue better than the PM, that's informative for me, because I have tested the Blue against EMM and liked EMM better.
Two answers but from the same person!

I know several people holding the opposite opinion between Lavry Gold and PM. I haven't compared the two directly but the one time I was listening to a Lavry Gold A to D, I preferred a Weiss!

There are a number of facilities that use EMM, PM converters and Lavry Golds side by side depending on the desired effect.

Daniel_Dettwiler

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2006, 11:29:26 am »

Quote:

Two answers but from the same person!

I know several people holding the opposite opinion between Lavry Gold and PM. I haven't compared the two directly but the one time I was listening to a Lavry Gold A to D, I preferred a Weiss!

There are a number of facilities that use EMM, PM converters and Lavry Golds side by side depending on the desired effect.


...indeed, from the same person, haven't seen that:-=

I don't know the Weiss AD, but the Weiss DA I am very familar, and I prefere a EMM DA hands down for my taste and using. So probably I just get an EMM DA, that could not be wrong, and it is 8 Channal, which has some advantages for me as well.

Bob, if you know some Mastering Engineers, that have Listening Experiance to The EMM and Lavrie Gold (and maybe Pcific), and you think that I might contact them, please drop me a pm, I would apriciate

Thanks
Daniel
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Daniel Dettwiler
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Mark Donahue

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2006, 07:55:59 pm »

Daniel_Dettwiler wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 11:29

Quote:

Two answers but from the same person!

I know several people holding the opposite opinion between Lavry Gold and PM. I haven't compared the two directly but the one time I was listening to a Lavry Gold A to D, I preferred a Weiss!

There are a number of facilities that use EMM, PM converters and Lavry Golds side by side depending on the desired effect.


...indeed, from the same person, haven't seen that:-=

I don't know the Weiss AD, but the Weiss DA I am very familar, and I prefere a EMM DA hands down for my taste and using. So probably I just get an EMM DA, that could not be wrong, and it is 8 Channal, which has some advantages for me as well.

Bob, if you know some Mastering Engineers, that have Listening Experiance to The EMM and Lavrie Gold (and maybe Pcific), and you think that I might contact them, please drop me a pm, I would apriciate

Thanks
Daniel

Daniel,
I have in my room a Model 1, DCS904/954 and Meitner ADC/DAC8 mk IV. Each of these converters have their own color and are completely program dependant.
Here is my take on things. The PM is usually my first choice. It doesn't measure as well as the Meitner, but to my ear it is usually the first choice. The Meitner is super clean and some may say a little clinical, great for some things, not for others.
I must admit that the DCS is usually the last choice. (Yea, I'm spoiled....)
All of these converters are reference quality, but the Model 1 does sooo many more things. Besides the stuff listed above it also is one of the best program limiters in existence. Just try and pry it from my cold dead hands! (Unless you intend to leave a model 2 in its place...)
As always YMMV.
-mark
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Mark Donahue
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Daniel_Dettwiler

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2006, 08:15:32 pm »

Quote:

Daniel,
I have in my room a Model 1, DCS904/954 and Meitner ADC/DAC8 mk IV. Each of these converters have their own color and are completely program dependant.
Here is my take on things. The PM is usually my first choice. It doesn't measure as well as the Meitner, but to my ear it is usually the first choice. The Meitner is super clean and some may say a little clinical, great for some things, not for others.
I must admit that the DCS is usually the last choice. (Yea, I'm spoiled....)
All of these converters are reference quality, but the Model 1 does sooo many more things. Besides the stuff listed above it also is one of the best program limiters in existence. Just try and pry it from my cold dead hands! (Unless you intend to leave a model 2 in its place...)
As always YMMV.
-mark


Hy Mark

Thanks very much, that was very informative and helpful for me. My main Projects are acoustic Music, mostly Jazz. My AD DA Combination must therefore deliver the best possible dimension and depth of field infrormation. That's wy I prefered the Meitner both AD and DA to every thing I have listend so far. That includes Prism, Weiss and Lavrie Blue and DCS. I too felt that they might have its stengh, but for what I need the depth of field information is everything. You say that the Meintner is more clean. Do you feel it will translate the depth of field information more acourate than a PM mod 1?  

Thx
Daniel
PS: I can totaly understand that you usually pick the meitner before the DCS. (Spoiled as I am too...)
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Daniel Dettwiler
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David Glasser

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2006, 09:20:32 pm »

Daniel_Dettwiler wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 18:15

Quote:

Daniel,
I have in my room a Model 1, DCS904/954 and Meitner ADC/DAC8 mk IV. Each of these converters have their own color and are completely program dependant.
Here is my take on things. The PM is usually my first choice. It doesn't measure as well as the Meitner, but to my ear it is usually the first choice. The Meitner is super clean and some may say a little clinical, great for some things, not for others.
I must admit that the DCS is usually the last choice. (Yea, I'm spoiled....)
All of these converters are reference quality, but the Model 1 does sooo many more things. Besides the stuff listed above it also is one of the best program limiters in existence. Just try and pry it from my cold dead hands! (Unless you intend to leave a model 2 in its place...)
As always YMMV.
-mark


Hy Mark

Thanks very much, that was very informative and helpful for me. My main Projects are acoustic Music, mostly Jazz. My AD DA Combination must therefore deliver the best possible dimension and depth of field infrormation. That's wy I prefered the Meitner both AD and DA to every thing I have listend so far. That includes Prism, Weiss and Lavrie Blue and DCS. I too felt that they might have its stengh, but for what I need the depth of field information is everything. You say that the Meintner is more clean. Do you feel it will translate the depth of field information more acourate than a PM mod 1?  

Thx
Daniel
PS: I can totaly understand that you usually pick the meitner before the DCS. (Spoiled as I am too...)


Daniel,

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I also have a Pacific Microsonics Model 2 and an EMM DAC 8 (an earlier model), as well as a Prism ADA-8.

Re: the differences between the Model 1 & Model 2 - the Model 2 does 48k and 4x sampling rates; it also does single wire AES at 88.2/96k - the Model 1 operates in dual wire mode. The Model 2 clocking is more flexible - it can operate as the clock master in D-D modes. You can also clock the D/A from the A/D.

re: sound - I concur with Mark. The Model 2 is usually my preferrence for D/A & A/D. The Meitner, to my ears, does not resolve as much detail in PCM mode as the Model 2. I use HDCD encoding for most projects; it's still the best dithering scheme that I've tried. (If I could get my hands on 2 more Model 2s for surround...). The Prism ADA-8 and the newer ADA-8XR, though is the best value out there for high-end converters. With the proper cards, it does DSD conversion, PCM>DSD>PCM, synchronous SRC, and more, and it sounds great.
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bl

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2006, 04:59:39 am »

Quote:

Thanks, Brent. Any experience with the Model II?


Hey Brad,

No, I've been trolling for one for a couple of years.  I was real sorry that I didn't upgrade when they offered it at the time (there was a long turnaround and a huge waiting list).  

I saw one up for sale two years ago but it wasn't the right time for me to buy (it was $10k).

There is a guy in Studio City, CA who has been gobbling them up for his rental company.  He rents them to film mixers and has racks of them that he gets $400/day each!  And, they are popular still.

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brent lambert
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bl

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2006, 05:10:34 am »

Quote:

Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ?? Thu, 24 August 2006 05:53  
Bob Olhsson  

The PM converters were taken out of production so that they could support the ones in the field.

This is one responsible manufacturer unlike too many I could name...  


Yes, this is part of the scenario.  My understanding is that Pacific stopped production because Microsoft purchased the HDCD technology (effectively bought the company) to integrate into Windows Media 9.  Microsoft doesn't manufacture products and had no interest in further hardware development so they pulled the plug.  

As you stated, kudos to Dave Peck, Michael Ritter and crew for not just building out the remaining stock of parts and thereby facilitating long term serviceability for the Model's 1 and 2.

If anyone want to hear the sonic signature of a Model 1 or 2 just check out any of Keith Johnson's (one of the co-developers)recordings for the reference recordings label.

Cheers,
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Daniel_Dettwiler

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2006, 08:42:57 am »

Quote:

Daniel,

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I also have a Pacific Microsonics Model 2 and an EMM DAC 8 (an earlier model), as well as a Prism ADA-8.

Re: the differences between the Model 1 & Model 2 - the Model 2 does 48k and 4x sampling rates; it also does single wire AES at 88.2/96k - the Model 1 operates in dual wire mode. The Model 2 clocking is more flexible - it can operate as the clock master in D-D modes. You can also clock the D/A from the A/D.

re: sound - I concur with Mark. The Model 2 is usually my preferrence for D/A & A/D. The Meitner, to my ears, does not resolve as much detail in PCM mode as the Model 2. I use HDCD encoding for most projects; it's still the best dithering scheme that I've tried. (If I could get my hands on 2 more Model 2s for surround...). The Prism ADA-8 and the newer ADA-8XR, though is the best value out there for high-end converters. With the proper cards, it does DSD conversion, PCM>DSD>PCM, synchronous SRC, and more, and it sounds great.


David

Thanks for the information. Looks like the Pacific Microsonics would be worth a deal. I wonder wheter an older EMM DA sounds different to the Actual EMM MK4 DA though.

Thanks
Daniel
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2006, 01:18:28 pm »

Keith Johnson has designed new filters for the Euphonix MADI converters. Even though these are 26 channel units, they ought to be at the top of the list for people to check out as a state of the art converter that is still manufactured.

I just did a yummy 96k. 5.1 project at Georgetown using all PM model 2s.

mastermind

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2006, 01:23:19 pm »

Just to clairify my previous thoughts on this:

1) I didn't say the Lavry Blue's were superior to the Model I, but that they could "hold their own". When I shot out the two boxes, there were things I iked about each, but in the end I chose the Blues, mostly because the PM I can't do 96k, and in my case most of my client base could care less about HDCD.

2) The PM boxes don't seem to be known for their reliability... I understand these are complex boxes... but they do seem to have their fair share of issues. They are big - when they do need repair just the shipping alone is a fair chunk.

3) I agree Dave Peck and Euphonix offers excellent support for these boxes.

4) I still think the Lavry Golds are the total shizzle of converters.... but that's just me.

t

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trevor sadler
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Daniel_Dettwiler

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Re: Pacific Microsonics Mod 1 vs EMM or Lavrie or ??
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2006, 05:11:55 pm »

All,

thanks again for your help. The decision is made, it is a Emm Labs DA Mk4. I am still very curious about the Pacific Microsonics and so I am for the Lavrie Gold. Those are the two converters that I can believe that it would be possible that I could like them more than the EMM. But it could also be possible that I like the EMM more of course. Fact was, that I know the EMM DA already and liked it always very much and I personally prefered it to prism, lavrie blue and Weiss DA. Then it has 8 Channals, not two! There is a time when one just have to make a desicion. Even if I would try to get a lavrie gold to evaluate (which is near impossible in switzerland), I could not try a pacific. And even if I could I am sure someone tells me about another highender, that I have forgot. So finally I think the EMM is a great thing, and it does everything that I need right now. And it does DSD (that I don't need now, but who knows), and it has 8 Channals. (And I have just got one for a good price in ebay:-)

I am not a regular forum user, but I have to say that I enjoyed the fact that the people writing here were very friendly, helpful and knowlegable.

Daniel
www.ideeundklang.com
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Daniel Dettwiler
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