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Author Topic: Any advice on recording sound for a film  (Read 9571 times)

Barry Hufker

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2006, 09:13:24 PM »

Tim,

I don't think sync will be expensive on this scale.  They'll shoot video, pull his audio off his recording media based on his log and edit in a DAW.

You know *much* better than me and I bow to your expertise.

Barry
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Tim Halligan

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2006, 11:14:03 AM »

I don't know why I didn't suggest this earlier...Rolling Eyes

Find out who is editing the film.

Go talk to them, and find out what they are expecting from you.

Talk to the director/producer, and find out what he expects.

Between those two entities, you'll have a list of what you'll need to buy/rent.

Crunch the numbers, and figure out if you really want to do the job...but don't forget to factor in the knowledge you'll aquire along the way as a positive.

Enjoy.

Cheers,
Tim
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trebor_zaid

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2006, 01:12:27 PM »

More wonderful advice. Yes, drown me in it!!!

I got a question. Would it really matter if between the mic and the board, I throw in a pre amp. Like a Brick or something. To kind of warm up the voice a little in the video. Will Mackie pre's be enough? The XDR pre's is what the 1202's have. Does it matter when it comes to tracking audio for a film?
r
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2006, 04:55:41 PM »

Hi Trebor... I'll give you my two cents as being the person who is going to deal with your audio after you have recorded it...  I've been editing TV show and film dialogue for a little while now and just started mixing indie films.

First off... pay attention to the ambient sound of the room...always try to record dead space for each setup you do (each camera angle, or perspective change).  Try to even get the director to make everyone stop for 10~15 seconds so you can record some of the room tone with each change in setup.

Be very aware of background sounds that come and go.  Things like open apartment windows with cars driving by, or A/C that turns off and on or planes flying overhead.  Try to position the mic in such a way that it minimizes those changing ambient sounds.  Try and close as many windows as you can, and so on.  This is why shotgun mics can be very helpful.  Position the mic and angle as to reject these sounds as much as possible.  Also watch for possible sources of off camera sounds.  If there are noisy floor boards right where all the production crew is standing, then there will be a lot of creaking going on while filming.  Try to minimize this with mic placement or even find a carpet to throw down or something.

Be very away of production sound effects (a.k.a. PFX).  Things like glasses clinking, footsteps, etc.  Since this is an indie film, you'll want to try and record as much of that as you can because there will probably be no foley involved...but you also want ot make sure the production sounds aren't drastically louder than the dialogue.

Outdoor scenes are always a nightmare for post sound editors.  Try and use some Lavalier mics if you can for outdoor shots.

Remember, anything you record on a track is married to everything else on that track.  When mixing the movie, if the dialogue gets too quiet and the mixer needs to turn the volume up, all the glass clinks and footsteps and cars driving by will get louder as well. If the actors are really good, they'll inherently make production sounds around their lines instead of during their lines (things like putting a glass down or closing a door or using a fork on a dinner plate).  When that happens, the dialogue editor can separate the noises from the dialogue and everyone is happy!  But since it's an indie film, you can't expect the actors to do this all the time.  So most likely they'll make a bunch of those sounds while they are talking (or another character in the scene is talking).  That's why it is imperative that you try to minimize the pickup of those sounds while maximizing the pickup of their voices.  Sometimes there's nothing you can do...but for the most part you can use creative mic placement to reject ambient sounds and focus in on the actor's voices.

If you can find a multitrack recorder, record a boom mic, and lavaliers to different tracks.  Whatever you do, DON'T MIX the different mics together onto one track.  As a dialogue editor, we've found major problems on the boom mic that were avoided by switching to the lavalier mic (which didn't have the problem) or vice versa. If you combine them while recording there is no way to fix any problems.  If you are using a stereo recorder, have the boom on one channel and the lav on the other... or if you are just using lav's have one on the first channel and the other on the second.  Never combine them. And!!! Always watch out for clipping and distortion.  I can't tell you how many indie films I see that have distorted production tracks.  Make sure you're not clipping!

SYNC IS ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT!!! Sync is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR JOB!!! If the audio doesn't sync to the video, first off the video editor will shoot you.  Second the dialogue editor will shoot you.  Everything needs to be recorded with timecode to make sure the sync is 100% accurate.  The camera man should be able to feed you timecode (hopefully).  Use the timecode that is being printed with the film/video.

Also, remember that all movies are shot and mixed at 48KHz/16bit.  Make sure your recorder is set to that sampling rate and bit rate.  And finally, like someone else said, don't do any processing on the audio whatsoever.  Keep it as natural as possible.  If you are going to be using an external preamp, make sure it is as clean as possible.  Transformerless designs work best.  No Tubes! No Warmth!  Also, sometimes I see production mixers recording with a Hipass filter on to try and get rid of the mud below 80~100Hz.  That's fine but just make sure it sounds good.  I would always err on the side of caution and not use it.  It's easy for the re-recording mixer to slap a hipass on while mixing.

Good luck and have fun!  Make sure you document EVERYTHING!!!  Scene number, take number, time code, if it's a pickup (p/u) in the middle of the scene make sure to write what line number in the script (if the script has line numbers) or what spoken line you are starting on), also try to reference what reel of film/tape they are shooting on (if you can).  The more info you can write down to help the video editor when transferring the video and audio into avid, the better.

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Derek Jones
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2006, 05:21:34 PM »

Oh yeah, one other thing I should mention... if you have time (during a break or at the end/beginning of the day), try to record some foley if the scene needs sound effects that are room specific.

I just mixed a short indie film, and at the climax of the movie the main actor shoots another actor in an apartment living room with a gun.  But, to keep the production tracks as clean as possible they didn't have the gun fire while filming and the gun shot was added as a sound effect in post...

Well... I got about 8 different gunshots from the SFX editor all at that one spot, but none of them sounded even remotely close to what a 9mm glock would sound like in an apartment.  The director and producer both said, "hmmm...next time we need a gunshot like this should just fire a cap gun or prop pistol in the room as a wild track".  If they had done that, the SFX editor could have easily lined up the wild gunshot with the picture... or I could have used the shot to snag an impulse response of the room to help make the SFX gunshots sound more believeable.

Anyway... just keep things like that in mind.  Sometimes a "wild track" (a wild track is recorded without video/film rolling and is intended for possible use as background or foley) can be a lifesaver.  

Wild tracks can also be the sounds of cars driving by on a busy street where you are shooting or planes flying overhead or machinery noises on the set (if you are shooting in a factory/warehouse).  A great produciton mixer spending 10 mintues recording sounds "wild" in the set can save post production hours of work!

Just keep that in the back of your mind as you are shooting... things like, "hmmm...the character is supposed to turn on the dishwasher and garbage disposal in this scene... maybe on the lunch/dinner break I'll record a minute or two of the dishwasher actually turning on and running (using the same boom setup as you were/are for the scene and maybe micing a little closer too!) and the garbage disposal as well."  Just make sure the director knows you want to do that and make sure you label it as a wild track.  

Little things like that make people very happy with your work (so long as you aren't gettting in the way or holding up production when you are doing it).  

And in the notes make sure the Video editor knows to include these wild tracks and room tone tracks in the OMF files for the sound editors to use.  Sometimes the production mixer will record the room tone at the beginning of a take and not label it as such... so the video editor just discards it after the scene has been cut together and none of the handles in the OMF file exend out enough to include the room tone or wild track.  So then the sound editors never know that you even recorded it and have no access to it and it never gets used.  Very good record keeping/note taking can help keep those types of situations from happening...
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Derek Jones
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Tim Halligan

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 10:45:08 PM »

trebor_zaid wrote on Sat, 26 August 2006 01:12



I got a question. Would it really matter if between the mic and the board, I throw in a pre amp. Like a Brick or something. To kind of warm up the voice a little in the video. Will Mackie pre's be enough? The XDR pre's is what the 1202's have. Does it matter when it comes to tracking audio for a film?




Your job as a sound recordist on any film of any budget is to capture the dialogue and any necessary production sound effects as cleanly as possible.

Right?

You'll be working in potentially hostile environments - by hostile, I mean not acoustically controlled listening spaces - under headphones for long periods.

You will not be in any position to make an accurate judgement. Leave that for post.

Yes - it matters when tracking audio for a film.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that location sound is anything like music recording. It is an entirely different skillset.

At the risk of seeming arrogant, I'm gonna quote myself here.

I wrote on August 15th


Do not "mix for dailies".

Be real careful about eq/rolloff/levels in the field. The name of the game is consistency shot to shot. When they cut the dials, it's not just about getting the dials to the right level...it's also about what the background is doing at the same time.

Play it safe. Do the least amount of damage to the source sound as you can.




The other thing to consider when using more stuff, is that setup/tear down takes longer. You DO NOT want to be the one that slows down the unit. Trust me on this.

Trebor Zaid wrote


Ok, first, not my project. It is someones elses and they have asked me to run sound.



One thing to consider here...if you fuck this up, the probability is that you'll never be asked again, and if I'm interpreting you correctly, the sound guy who has asked you to sub for him will probably be asked some hard questions also.

Careful, you could screw two careers here.

Keep it simple. Do not overthink this.


Cheers,
Tim
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trebor_zaid

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2006, 04:56:17 PM »

 Shocked damn that's allot of info. I got to print this all out. Thanks so, so, so much for your advice.

I have yet more questions. What mic do I use inside? Shotgun? I read in one of the replies here that hyper or super cardoid is best. I got a Beyer M500 rib mic with hypercardoid pattern. But I have heard don't use ribs.

Do I need to buy yet another mic with hyper or super for indoors? Cardoid won't work? I just bought an AKG C4000 and it has a hypercardoid setting, but it's an LDC.

I think most of this film is indoors, so I think I am safe. I might not need to buy a portable recorder at 5 trillion dollars  Laughing

When a recorder is $1K, it might as well be 5 trillion for me.

Improvisation and quick thinking on the cheap, w/ semi cool quality is the order of business on this project.

I had a question that wasn't answered. Do I use an external pre for warmth? Like a Brick? Does that help in movie sound?

What would make things sound richer or warmer in the dialoge tracks?

thanks again for all the help
r
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Tim Halligan

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2006, 08:54:58 PM »

Trebor,
If you want to use an external pre, then use one because it is clean. Grace pre's are occasionaly used in this application.

Do not use a pre for warmth/colour/whatever, because you won't be in an environment that will allow for critical decision-making. Leave that to the post production phase of the film.

Balance any positives gained using an external pre against the additional set-up/teardown time...and the "more gear - more potential faults" factor. Don't do anything that will slow the film down.

As far as the indoor stuff goes...the 416/MK60 will do fine, but I know some of the Hollywood types use something else. I believe it is a Schoeps, but I don't know what model.

Just hope like hell that the house is fully carpeted, and full of over-stuffed furniture... Very Happy

Cheers,
Tim
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"Don't forget, we are all engaged in a battle to the death against mediocrity." - J. Whynot

"You can tune a room only with a bulldozer." - Andy Peters

Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2006, 11:30:00 PM »

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Fri, 25 August 2006 13:55

...Keep it as natural as possible.  If you are going to be using an external preamp, make sure it is as clean as possible.  Transformerless designs work best.  No Tubes! No Warmth!  


this probably got lost in all the other info I threw at you... but yeah, no tube preamps...no warmth.  Transformerless mic preamps (GML, Grace, Millenia, etc...) work best.  Actually, you might be able to use an FMR RNP.  I believe it's transformerless and pretty clean.  Tubes and transformers, while being "warm" also usually add more noise to the signal.  That is bad.

Since you're on a very low budget, just do what you can.  Maybe try out the AKG mic first and see if it works for you.
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Derek Jones
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thedoc

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2006, 11:53:23 PM »

Typical mics for production include Senn 416's and 816's.  Neumann makes the 191.  Good for boom or fishpole use.

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Doc

Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2006, 01:12:32 PM »

Hey trebor, another mic you should check out is Rode...they just started making mics for film/TV production and accessories to go with them.  Here's their link...

http://www.rodemic.com/?pagename=Microphones

Check out the NTG1, NTG2 and the VideoMics.  The NTG-1 is only $230, the NTG-2 is $250 and the shockmount for it is about $50, the Rode boom pole is about $80, and the Rode "Dead Cat" furry wind screen is $50.


Rode might be a cost effective alternative for you at this point... check 'em out...


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Derek Jones
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Tim Halligan

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2006, 02:32:39 PM »

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Fri, 01 September 2006 01:12



Check out the NTG1, NTG2 and the VideoMics.  The NTG-1 is only $230, the NTG-2 is $250 and the shockmount for it is about $50, the Rode boom pole is about $80, and the Rode "Dead Cat" furry wind screen is $50.




I've had some experience with one of these...the NTG1 - I think. Rolling Eyes

It wasn't terrible...but it wasn't a 416 either. Just didn't have the same "reach" or the anything like the same punch. It did, however, have some kind of weird - in comparison to a 416 - HF/presence boost, that on some voices could easily become a sibilance problem.

Like I said...it wasn't terrible...but proceed with caution.

Other options you might like to investigate are AKG 568. Again, not terrible...but not a 416...

The Audio Technica shotguns...they have a few. I've no experience with them.

AKG 451/460 with the CK8 head. Not too bad, and with the interchangable head system, are a worthwhile addition for music purposes once the film finishes. Still...not a 416.

Cheers,
Tim

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"Don't forget, we are all engaged in a battle to the death against mediocrity." - J. Whynot

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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2006, 08:31:36 PM »

well yeah, I would tend to agree that the 416 sounds best.  but it is also around $1100 right?  I haven't heard the rode, but figured it might be a cheaper alternative for his first indie...

But as never having hear the rode shotguns... definitely beware as tim has suggested.  And... if at all possible... save up for the good stuff.
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Derek Jones
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Dave Lang

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2006, 04:03:22 PM »

Here are some suggestions based on my experience doing audio post on a recent nightmare indie project:

1) don't cut the mic cord with a knife when you're attaching / removing tape from the boom pole - the cut mic cord won't let any sound go to the recording thingies, or worse, will send lots of staticy clicks to the recording thingie that will look like sound on the meters if you aren't listening - then there'll be no location audio for that scene and the actors will have to come to the studio and do "ADR" - which will be a drag 'cause they haven't done it before and there's no budget and the post guy will call you an "idiot"

2) listen to what you're recording on headphones so that if #1 happens, you'll know about it before the post guy calls you an "idiot" - listening will also help you decide if the smoke machine is louder than the dialog you're recording - if it is, and you don't notice, then it's going to be "ADR" time - and someone is going to be called an "idiot"

3) if an airplane flies overhead as the director yells "action" while shooting a post apocalypse Mad Max style "film" where there are no airplanes, point this out to the director to avoid the "ADR" situation mentioned above and having the post guy call both of you "idiots"

4) before suggesting that the post guy can "EQ out" the sound of that generator, give it a try yourself and see if the director likes how the dialog sounds afterwards, or get ready for more "ADR"

It shouldn't be too hard to avoid items #1 thru #4 and then you will have done a better job than someone else did on your first attempt! Congratulations!

Good luck and don't forget to post back here afterwards and let us know how it went.

Very Happy
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trebor_zaid

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Re: Any advice on recording sound for a film
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2006, 04:32:19 PM »

Oh I apologize, we are not using "recording thingies" we are using "tracking doohickies". Big difference! Wink

But your advice below does (eer...I mean above), does lead me to my next question and again thank you all of this advice. AGH, so much Smile

What am I looking for in POST? As far as EQ'ing, compressing (if needed), panning, just general mixing. What am I looking at? Do "I" need to do anything or does the editor do it in a small project like this.

Like will I get a copy of the entire project to edit the sound then I pass it on to the film editor and he does his thing?

thanks again, and if I may say, pick up one of those tracking doohickies......you will not be dissappointed! BWAHAHAHA!
r
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