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Author Topic: some interesting perspective from an old article.........  (Read 10750 times)

Ron Steele

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some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« on: July 31, 2006, 11:44:09 PM »

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_jack_joseph_puig/index.html

article excerpt:
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------

What I do for a living is make commercial records; that's my job of choice. We are in a service-oriented business. It's true that some people want their CD to be done as fast as possible and for it to sound like everything else. In other words, they like McDonald's, where they're in, they're out and they know what they're gonna get. And yes, it's possible to develop systems where you don't have to change anything and you can move very quickly.


I also have had A&R and bands come to me for sonic creativity. Who wouldn't want to have the luxury of listening to the song, talking to the band, discovering what they're about, what they're going through, what CDs they've been listening to and why they wrote those songs?


You prefer to have input from the band while you're mixing?



Of course, when it's possible. Because you're working with them for only a few days or a few weeks. You haven't made the record, lived with the record like they have. Instead, you've gotta get up to speed - 0 to 180, now!


You're talking about establishing a relationship.


Yes, with the artist and the song. Take Arif Mardin, who is a genius. He always established a relationship with the song and artist. He always knows how to allow everyone to do their best and how to put them on target. He understands the value of the artist.


That's great, assuming you're working with great artists.


Of course. But I believe at some point in the '80s, people who do what I do for a living - mixers or producers - became the stars. It was the beginning of us having managers, percentages on records; everything started to change. And it was no longer the guy recording the record who was mixing it.


I'll give you an example. Take Janet Jackson's "What Have You Done For Me Lately?" Hear that record in your head, then try playing it on a piano. You can't come close to it feeling like the song you remembered. It's all about the sound of the backbeat - the attitude, the arrangement - the way it's put together. The real true artist there...


Was the production.


The production team. Meaning producers, engineers and the mixers. They were really the artists. The computer, which was a large part of the technical '80s revolution, was coming in. Everyone got very engrossed with the manipulation of what we could do to the music. So the focus was not on the artist.


Artists became, in many cases, interchangeable.


We were the artists in those cases. And that's not the total perspective. It got a bit out of control, and that's why it's so important to understand whose wedding it is. Now, I'm not talking about being a wimp. You have to have confidence, and you have to realize your contribution. The artists are the diamond in the rough, and it's their wedding.


But great production is also art.


Of course. What's Thriller? There's no production in Dark Side of the Moon or Kiss from a Rose? Or Abbey Road? I mean, George Martin's a genius. Or what about Led Zeppelin? That's not what I'm saying. I'm pointing out that those records happen when all the parts are in the right relationship. Where they all come to the party. What a great record is about is people coming together making that indescribable chemistry. When it really works on a huge level, it's bigger than all of us, and you don't even know it's happening.


You're lucky to have experienced that; it doesn't happen to everyone.


I've never taken this for granted. I will be able to look back and say I appreciated every moment of it, with respect.


C'mon, you never have those moments when you put your head down on the console and go, "I cannot do one more pass of the song"?


The business doesn't owe us anything. We're very, very fortunate to be a part of it. I get to work at Ocean Way Studios, one of the best recording studios on the planet, with phenomenal artists. They write great songs. They can sing and play, and they have something to say. What's wrong with that?


Who were your mentors?


I had three. The first one is Bill Schnee, who was like my Obi Wan Kenobi. And I always look at Glyn Johns and Arif Mardin as my Yodas. Anytime you do a band's first record and it goes through the roof, and you've been a part of creating their sound, you have done what I aspire to ultimately do - create the blueprint! That separates the men from the boys. Certainly all three of them do that.


I came up in the late '80s, so I knew how those records were made. But I wanted to know how records were made in the '60s and '70s and early '80s. The three of them gave me that education. Each of them gave me a different perspective, and I continue to pull from them all the time. I actually hear their voices in my head sometimes when I'm doing things.


What do you hear Glyn Johns saying?


"Nothing is precious." True rock 'n' roll is not precious. Glyn was very much against the idea of becoming anal over any aspect of a record - down to placing a microphone on a guitar amp. Glyn was like, "Whack it! Just move it `til you think it's right!"


I remember once, engineering for Glyn and spending a lot of time miking a guitar, trying to find the exact spot where it would sound amazing, because I wanted to blow him away. Finally, he said, "Are you done?" "Yes, what do you think?" "It's great. But let me show you something." We walked out of the control room into the studio. He walked up to the amp and looked me straight in the eye. Our eyes were locked, and he took his leg and knocked the mic over. And he kept looking at me, waiting for my response. Which was, in my mind: "You're a dick. You're an asshole!"


And that's when he looked at me and said, "Nothing is precious. Use your instinct. Use your gut. Mike it again and use your instinct." He was right. In two seconds, I had it sounding better.


As simple and mundane as that sounds, it's one of the greatest lessons I learned in this business. That's why rough mixes and demos are so often amazing. You're not thinking about it, you're just doing it.



------------------------------------------------------------ ----------



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dcollins

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2006, 12:43:39 AM »

"I mix to half-inch, DAT and DA-88"

Close one!

DC

electrical

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2006, 04:17:20 PM »

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 31 July 2006 23:44

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_jack_joseph_puig/index.html

article excerpt:
"Whack it! Just move it `til you think it's right!"

"...And then I'll kick it over and make you do it again. Because, actually, something is precious. Me. I'm precious. I'm Glyn Fucking Johns and I get to run you around. Got it?"
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Ron Steele

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2006, 08:05:09 PM »

electrical wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 16:17

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 31 July 2006 23:44

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_jack_joseph_puig/index.html

article excerpt:
"Whack it! Just move it `til you think it's right!"

"...And then I'll kick it over and make you do it again. Because, actually, something is precious. Me. I'm precious. I'm Glyn Fucking Johns and I get to run you around. Got it?"



ok..... so i take it you don't like Glyn Fucking Johns?

steve, thanks for the thought and input.
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electrical

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2006, 12:49:38 AM »

Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 20:05

electrical wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 16:17

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 31 July 2006 23:44

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_jack_joseph_puig/index.html

article excerpt:
"Whack it! Just move it `til you think it's right!"

"...And then I'll kick it over and make you do it again. Because, actually, something is precious. Me. I'm precious. I'm Glyn Fucking Johns and I get to run you around. Got it?"



ok..... so i take it you don't like Glyn Fucking Johns?

steve, thanks for the thought and input.


I don't have an opinion about Glyn Johns. This sort of Me Tarzan! one-upsmanship (as described), however, is utterly boorish and doesn't reflect well on him. If it even happened, that is.

And you're welcome.
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maxim

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2006, 06:13:34 AM »

steve wrote:

"I don't have an opinion about Glyn Johns."

i'll put that in the hard-to-believe category

i do have an opinion, though

that sort of behaviour is also what perpetuates the "top dog" bullshit that is so prevalent, especially, among males of the species

to be honest, i felt a little embarrassed for jjp, not least, that he had to publicly prostrate himself about it as well




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wwittman

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2006, 05:11:58 PM »

electrical wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 00:49

... If it even happened, that is.



this being the crucial phrase
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kjcoral

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2006, 10:14:27 PM »

electrical wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 00:49

Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 20:05

electrical wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 16:17

Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 31 July 2006 23:44

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_jack_joseph_puig/index.html

article excerpt:
"Whack it! Just move it `til you think it's right!"

"...And then I'll kick it over and make you do it again. Because, actually, something is precious. Me. I'm precious. I'm Glyn Fucking Johns and I get to run you around. Got it?"



ok..... so i take it you don't like Glyn Fucking Johns?

steve, thanks for the thought and input.


I don't have an opinion about Glyn Johns. This sort of Me Tarzan! one-upsmanship (as described), however, is utterly boorish and doesn't reflect well on him. If it even happened, that is.

And you're welcome.


mr albini,

considering what you have said in interviews i have read, for you to call-out someone for "boorish" behaviour is the height of irony and hubris. well done...
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compasspnt

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2006, 06:38:51 PM »

maxim wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 06:13


to be honest, i felt a little embarrassed for jjp, not least, that he had to publicly prostrate himself about it as well





Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..........
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electrical

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2006, 11:00:02 PM »

kjcoral wrote on Tue, 22 August 2006 22:14

considering what you have said in interviews i have read, for you to call-out someone for "boorish" behaviour is the height of irony and hubris. well done...

Thank you. I've never been to the heights before.
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craig boychuk

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2006, 09:23:13 AM »

I'm afraid of heights.



-craig
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Ron Steele

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2006, 02:20:58 PM »

High or not, at least we know who mixerman really is now, and about the whole womb thing, and where it really came from.

The funny thing is, mm went and outed himself on his own forum, only to then deny it as mm. then he deleted the whole thread when he got caught with his panties down. Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

I don't know, I would not expect that behavior from an entity such as JJP, but maybe the mm persona is his "odd" side. Shocked

Who knew.....maybe mm was getting bored.

Very Happy  
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jimmyjazz

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2006, 12:51:21 PM »

Ron Steele wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 14:20

The funny thing is, mm went and outed himself on his own forum, only to then deny it as mm. then he deleted the whole thread when he got caught with his panties down. Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

I don't know, I would not expect that behavior from an entity such as JJP, but maybe the mm persona is his "odd" side.


One could hardly be more "disconnected" than me, but even I know who mixerman is.  Rest assured, he's not JJP.
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Ron Steele

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2006, 02:39:17 PM »

jimmyjazz wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 12:51

Ron Steele wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 14:20

The funny thing is, mm went and outed himself on his own forum, only to then deny it as mm. then he deleted the whole thread when he got caught with his panties down. Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

I don't know, I would not expect that behavior from an entity such as JJP, but maybe the mm persona is his "odd" side.


One could hardly be more "disconnected" than me, but even I know who mixerman is.  Rest assured, he's not JJP.



Well, you may have a point there. Laughing



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Hud Hudson

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2006, 02:49:04 PM »

jimmyjazz wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 11:51

Ron Steele wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 14:20

The funny thing is, mm went and outed himself on his own forum, only to then deny it as mm. then he deleted the whole thread when he got caught with his panties down. Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

I don't know, I would not expect that behavior from an entity such as JJP, but maybe the mm persona is his "odd" side.


One could hardly be more "disconnected" than me, but even I know who mixerman is.  Rest assured, he's not JJP.



"Mixerman, I recorded with Jack Joseph Puig. I knew Jack Puig. Jack Puig was a friend of mine. Mixerman, you're no Jack Puig."

- REP lurker to Mixerman.
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wwittman

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2006, 11:01:08 PM »

Does anyone CARE who "mixerman" is or isn't?
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William Wittman
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Jeff Goodman

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2006, 06:31:19 PM »

I know who Mixerman is and I don't care.

I know JJP, and I gotta tell you I feel pretty conflicted about the guy. He works alot, so that says, well, something.

As a professional mixer, when he hits the nail on the head it can really do justice to the music in his own way that sounds like no one else. When he misses, well...we all have our days don't we.

Some things that he has mixed sound soo cool, others don't.

He certainly has been around for quite a while and learned from some of the best early on.

I don't know where I'm going with this other than take the good things and enjoy them, take the others and don't.

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maxim

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2006, 10:33:55 PM »

ok, does anyone NOT know who mixerman is?

if he wants to remain anonymous, he's not doing a very good job

an indication of his prowess in other areas?

or just a wish to be outed...

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wwittman

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2006, 10:56:45 PM »

I don't know, and may not care.


Should I affect a cool pet name?


From now on, I shall expect all of you to refer to me as The Big Unit.

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William Wittman
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Andy Peters

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2006, 11:10:22 PM »

wwittman wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 19:56

From now on, I shall expect all of you to refer to me as The Big Unit.


When Randy Johnson was traded to the Yankees, a lot of us Diamondbacks fans thought, "Whew!  finally, that ASSHOLE is outta here."

-a

PS: I'm still a Mets fan, always have been (even in the bad years), always will be.  But we rarely get Mets games on TV out here in the desert.
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maxim

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2006, 11:57:53 PM »

william wrote:

"Should I affect a cool pet name?"

william "the solidbody electric" wittman

or have you had your fill of walt-a wittman references?
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Ron Steele

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2006, 09:30:42 AM »

maxim wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 22:33

ok, does anyone NOT know who mixerman is?

if he wants to remain anonymous, he's not doing a very good job

an indication of his prowess in other areas?

or just a wish to be outed...




In this case, I would imagine the name "mixerman" provides a subconscious ego boost versus the need for anonymity and self promotion. One could easily attract more attention here using your real name.

Bottom line is people get work based on their talents, and their personal skills which usually have alot more to do with it then any credentials, and not from their Internet persona. My feelings on credentials are that they are just there to remind people that you have been around the block before, other wise for the most part, people have short memories.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2006, 10:13:28 AM »

Ron Steele wrote on Thu, 31 August 2006 14:30

maxim wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 22:33

ok, does anyone NOT know who mixerman is?
if he wants to remain anonymous, he's not doing a very good job
an indication of his prowess in other areas?
or just a wish to be outed...



In this case, I would imagine the name "mixerman" provides a subconscious ego boost versus the need for anonymity and self promotion. One could easily attract more attention here using your real name.



I'm not sure "mixerman" was that keen on being anonymous until he started the diaries and hence put out other people and their dirty laundry on the Internet.

Other than that, I fully agree with your last sentence regarding using your real name.
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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2006, 10:47:55 AM »

Tomas Danko wrote on Thu, 31 August 2006 10:13

I'm not sure "mixerman" was that keen on being anonymous until he started the diaries and hence put out other people and their dirty laundry on the Internet.


Not true.  He was quite active on rec.audio.pro well before the diaries came out, and he protected his identify pretty fiercely back then, too.  He would divulge his identity in email if the need arose -- that's how I learned who he was -- but he made it clear that he wanted to maintain an anonymous public persona.

Personally, I never understood why anyone cared who he was.  He gave good advice, which was enough for me.  He continues to do so.
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Jeff Goodman

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2006, 01:38:37 PM »

wwittman wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 19:56


Should I affect a cool pet name?


From now on, I shall expect all of you to refer to me as The Big Unit.




Paul Wolff told me he used to call you Lightswitch Willie.  
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Fibes

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2006, 03:59:12 PM »

Jeff Goodman wrote on Thu, 31 August 2006 13:38

wwittman wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 19:56


Should I affect a cool pet name?


From now on, I shall expect all of you to refer to me as The Big Unit.




Paul Wolff told me he used to call you Lightswitch Willie.  



Damn.


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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2006, 09:56:35 PM »

Jeff Goodman wrote on Thu, 31 August 2006 13:38



Paul Wolff told me he used to call you Lightswitch Willie.  




or just "sir"
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rnicklaus

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2006, 01:31:40 AM »

When Mixerman and I were going at it like crazy last year on the protools radar analog stuff, we continued the screaming match on the phone late one night. I thought something he said made sense.

"Don't use your full name on the forums as people can search the posts out for life" (paraphrase)

I thought that was sound advice and changed to first initial last name on the name part, just to be a tiny bit of harder to find.
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maxim

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2006, 07:32:26 AM »

don't say anything you might not want people to read later

sounds simple to me

(aka think before you speak

or even simpler:

think.)
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Ron Steele

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2006, 10:30:48 AM »

rnicklaus wrote on Fri, 01 September 2006 01:31


"Don't use your full name on the forums as people can search the posts out for life" (paraphrase)




Yes, of course. Duc, run and choose your words carefully so they can not be used against you later after you make a complete jackass out yourself.

That advice would not apply to some. As he won't allow them to say anything that does not fit into his universe. Mixerman is the Rumsfeld of moderators, using censorship as a control. His message and "technique" has always been to create mayhem in and out of his forum, which would attract attention to himself all for self-promotional reasons and ego.

And anybody that called him on his BS, and wasn't towing the party line would be called out.  After MM  was exposed by those who called him on things and controversies he created, he would delete posts and threads that did not fit his conclusions and then ban the "trolls".

To each his own.

But really, I'm sure he is a cool guy outside of the internet, whoever he maybe.  Laughing
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rnicklaus

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2006, 12:24:58 PM »

I agree, choose words and think about what you post.

I also agree that I don't "like" the way some Marsh forums are moderated - in that you can get baited and baited - respond, have your responses removed, and then piled upon.

It's an interesting place to look at sometimes, but the pro tools, radar analog "discussion" would have never happened on the Marsh as it did on Fletcher's forum.

No doubt, internet personality Mixerman plays to his audience on his forums.  It's like internet audio Jerry Springer.

My point is if someone should choose to search my first and last name on google, I don't "need" a thousand forum posts to show up. I thought Mixerman gave sound advice.

YMMV

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Ron Steele

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2006, 12:35:13 PM »

rnicklaus wrote on Fri, 01 September 2006 12:24



My point is if someone should choose to search my first and last name on google, I don't "need" a thousand forum posts to show up. I though Mixerman gave sound advice.

YMMV




Agreed.
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Jack Schitt

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2006, 09:03:28 AM »

maxim wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 22:33

ok, does anyone NOT know who mixerman is?

if he wants to remain anonymous, he's not doing a very good job

an indication of his prowess in other areas?

or just a wish to be outed...





I don't know who he is and I am pretty sure it won't effect my existence in any way.

Did I see a reference to that shootout / no lows in PT trainwreck from a while back? That was a landmark case of he said she said that left some people looking pretty silly based on the posts I read and the clips I listened to.
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Jeff Goodman

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2006, 03:05:00 PM »

William,

I hope that you know that I was just in studio humor mode.


Jeff Goodman wrote on Thu, 31 August 2006 10:38

wwittman wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 19:56


Should I affect a cool pet name?


From now on, I shall expect all of you to refer to me as The Big Unit.




Paul Wolff told me he used to call you Lightswitch Willie.  


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Ron Steele

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2006, 11:18:08 PM »

Denny W. wrote on Sat, 02 September 2006 09:03

maxim wrote on Wed, 30 August 2006 22:33

ok, does anyone NOT know who mixerman is?

if he wants to remain anonymous, he's not doing a very good job

an indication of his prowess in other areas?

or just a wish to be outed...





I don't know who he is and I am pretty sure it won't effect my existence in any way.

Did I see a reference to that shootout / no lows in PT trainwreck from a while back? That was a landmark case of he said she said that left some people looking pretty silly based on the posts I read and the clips I listened to.


Not to rehash this but.......

that test proved there are certainly minor differences in formats, sample rates, and converters when you know what your listing to. And that different listeners have different opinions, but there certainly was not a pink elephant in the room or a drop in the low end that "even the maid could hear". If your listening blind, any differences become blurred and hard to detect.

The files proved that.

The bottom line is, we will never hear what mm claims to be able to reproduce time after time when doing a 2" transfer to PT. He was offered a chance to do this on numerous occasions with some very decent pros when he first brought out the "problem" to the DUCS attention. He then offered to do it "his way" after he claimed the "Chicago test" was done all wrong, including the source material that we used. The clock has been ticking ever since, and no one will ever get it right { the mm transfer test } except him.  

It's interesting how this issue became such a controversy and stayed a "problem" for so long. The attention it and MM got..... who did it it benefit?  What was it relative to ? Well, that is pretty easy to figure out.

Thank god,

no one really cares anymore. There is only so much someone can rant and rave about before others lose complete interest in a claim that just can't be backed up.


"BELIEVE ME, I HEARD IT."

Ok, let's play show and tell then.

I DON'T HAVE TO.  DO IT YOURSELF.

Ok, we did it ourselves, what do you think now?

YOU DID IT WRONG. I'M GOING TO DO IT MYSELF. THE RIGHT WAY.

Ok. If you say so........... again.

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 "I have had PLENTY of my posts torched on other boards. It kind of goes with the territory of pushing the envelope. Their house, their rules. Why can't everyone GET this?"

CWHumphrey

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2006, 12:46:31 PM »

Ron, we get it.  You challenged Mixerman, and he effectively back down.

That was 9 months ago.  Let it go.  

Cheers,
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Carter William Humphrey

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"Or you can just have Carter do the recording, because he's Humphrey."-J.J. Blair

Bryson

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Re: some interesting perspective from an old article.........
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2006, 05:57:45 AM »

CWHumphrey wrote on Mon, 11 September 2006 09:46

Ron, we get it.  You challenged Mixerman, and he effectively back down.

That was 9 months ago.  Let it go.  

Cheers,


Let go of what?
Somone else just brought it back up.
I know....Ron didn't have to reply....but why not?
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